Dark Knight under review: Feedback to the Developers and Community Team

[Arkfrost]

Tank stance is a learning, leveling and progression tool

And it shouldn't be. It is called tank stance, which means its meant to be used for tanking, while damage stance is meant to be used for doing damage.

Enforcing tank stance is a way to drive away the tanks that currently exist and push more people away from trying out tanks

I disagree. It might be a driveaway for some dps greed tanks who think they're a dps and not a tank, but imo it encourages lots of new players to play tank, since many feel discouraged about tanking, because they have the responsibility for the group and don't want to tank without tank stance because they fear to lose aggro or to die because they didn't use the appropriate tank cd in the right time, but at the same time those people are frequently blamed for being a bad tank since they're only tanking in tank stance and not doing damage by other dps greed tanks. I've experienced this countless times in PF groups, which is why many don't want to play tank right now (already talked to many people about this).

and while you can play like that, it is wrong outside of casual play

And that's what needs to be fixed imo.

as not focusing on doing damage in this MMO is not only the least engaging thing you can do

Well, that is your opinion. I find it waaay more engaging to stay in my tank stance, use my tank cd's at the right time, not having to worry about dps all the time and instead focusing in mitigating that party damage with things like blackest night, cover, passage of arms, etc. and looking at the boss, preparing for what he's doing that I can prevent as a tank, running around doing mechanics appropriately, etc. That dps element is just an unnecessary addition and in my opinion a good tank is not someone who does big d*** dps, but one who never dies, mitigates nearly any possible damage and uses his defensive cooldowns perfectly throughout a whole content.

Paladin players neither need nor want to return to the days of Heavensward.

I think what you are talking about is the fact that no one wanted paladin, because he wasn't as good in raids as a DRK+WAR combo. If you readjust all the tanks the same way, no one gets less preferred though. I'm talking about making it so all tank jobs have to tank in tank stance and do damage in damage stance.

If you start balancing an encounter around super tank busters, WAR will cheese through them with Holmgang if you make no further adjustments.

And I am specifically talking about making lots of adjustments and further adjustments.

Press button.

So? Anything you do in this game is "Press button". Even a perfectly optimized dragoon opener is just 23x "Press button" and I'm saying this as a dragoon main.

How are we going to judge if we are getting better or not if our dps is always stuck at 1000 (or whatever)?

And this is exactly the toxic mentality I hate most, the reason why almost all my ffxiv friends quit WoW and the reason why Yoshida will never implement an ingame parser. All 3 instances I mentioned (me, my friends and yoshida) don't want player skill to be judged based on plain numbers in a parser and you can even be banned in FFXIV for judging someone's skill in ingame chat because his numbers weren't high enough. In WoW this is always done (people get kicked from raid parties without a word if their dps isn't on point) and WoW is considered to have one of the most toxic raiding communities in MMOs, because everyone is just looking at those numbers instead of people doing mechanics right.
And to answer your question on "how are we going to judge if we are getting bette ror not": Easy. By seeing how often a person died, how perfectly mechanics were executed and how fast the boss died. "But yu can't see individual progress with this" -> This is an MMORPG. Raids are teamwork and individual skill doesn't matter. Group skill matters. If the group clears content faster, everyone got better and that's what the mentality in raiding should be: Progressing as a group. If you want to be an op solo player, go play FF15 or any solo title, but that's not a point for a team game.

[Valdegarde]

I'm talking about making it so all tank jobs have to tank in tank stance and do damage in damage stance.

As much as I vehemently disagree with this sentiment I understand it as a valid opinion among a certain player population. However, this topic and changes listed have been about adjusting Dark Knight in accordance with the current tank balance, not about changing how tanking fundamentally works from the ground up for everyone. Perhaps such a debate might be fought for a reshuffling in 5.0 and beyond, but what's being argued for here is a better implementation for how Dark Knight may interact with the game as it is currently presented.

[whiskeybravo]

Even a perfectly optimized dragoon opener is just 23x "Press button" and I'm saying this as a dragoon main.

Pressing 1 button for a mitigation CD is not anywhere near the same as a 23 GCD rotation. You don't just 23x Heavy Thrust. At least make a reasonable argument lol

Raids are teamwork and individual skill doesn't matter

Except that there is no team without the individuals. If you take a group of people who've never raided before and put them in a savage raid, they don't instantly clear because all of a sudden they are a "team" now. No, it takes competent individuals to form a competent team. Individual skill absolutely matters, otherwise you are just carrying the weakest link(s). And, regardless of whether you realize this or not, perfectly executed mechanics = higher dps. How fast the boss died is relative to the group's DPS. Your argument contradicts itself. If you're focusing on achieving higher damage then the only ways you can do that are by sharpening up every other area. If you sharpen up every other area then your damage naturally increases. It's the same goal either way.

but what's being argued for here is a better implementation for how Dark Knight may interact with the game as it is currently presented.

My apologies. Back to the topic that sort of started this diversion, I think Grit should remain with MP cost but should should be taken off the GCD, give it smoother action turning on and off (more like War). It's always felt like there is a weird delay with turning it off especially.

[Nedkel]

I think what you are talking about is the fact that no one wanted paladin, because he wasn't as good in raids as a DRK+WAR combo. If you readjust all the tanks the same way, no one gets less preferred though. I'm talking about making it so all tank jobs have to tank in tank stance and do damage in damage stance.
And I am specifically talking about making lots of adjustments and further adjustments.
So? Anything you do in this game is "Press button". Even a perfectly optimized dragoon opener is just 23x "Press button" and I'm saying this as a dragoon main.
And this is exactly the toxic mentality I hate most, the reason why almost all my ffxiv friends quit WoW and the reason why Yoshida will never implement an ingame parser. All 3 instances I mentioned (me, my friends and yoshida) don't want player skill to be judged based on plain numbers in a parser and you can even be banned in FFXIV for judging someone's skill in ingame chat because his numbers weren't high enough. In WoW this is always done (people get kicked from raid parties without a word if their dps isn't on point) and WoW is considered to have one of the most toxic raiding communities in MMOs, because everyone is just looking at those numbers instead of people doing mechanics right.
And to answer your question on "how are we going to judge if we are getting bette ror not": Easy. By seeing how often a person died, how perfectly mechanics were executed and how fast the boss died. "But yu can't see individual progress with this" -> This is an MMORPG. Raids are teamwork and individual skill doesn't matter. Group skill matters. If the group clears content faster, everyone got better and that's what the mentality in raiding should be: Progressing as a group. If you want to be an op solo player, go play FF15 or any solo title, but that's not a point for a team game.

But the game is designed that way and not another, your team dont need to, but have to meet certain DPS level in order to beat the end game content, and this is dictating the players priorities.
If the raids never had a enrage timers but instead it would be difficult on some different way than it is now, it would be all different. However its not, and the biggest part of the blame you should put on Yoshida himself and the game developer team, they designed it that way and they made it the most important part of the game i mean raids in this case.
Players just adjust, they dont have power over this things.
A tank playing in tank stance even if having extra mitigation hurts his team for doing so. If the game would have the dungeons rewarding as well as raids, the story would be totally different, but well its not and it seems raids will remain the most important part of the end game.
Dungeons are different and tanks could play in tank stance there, but well its not the case, i would love to see dungeons being the most important part of the game along side with raids, but thats not going to happen.

[WhyAmIHere]

And this is exactly the toxic mentality I hate most, the reason why almost all my ffxiv friends quit WoW and the reason why Yoshida will never implement an ingame parser. All 3 instances I mentioned (me, my friends and yoshida) don't want player skill to be judged based on plain numbers in a parser and you can even be banned in FFXIV for judging someone's skill in ingame chat because his numbers weren't high enough. In WoW this is always done (people get kicked from raid parties without a word if their dps isn't on point) and WoW is considered to have one of the most toxic raiding communities in MMOs, because everyone is just looking at those numbers instead of people doing mechanics right.
And to answer your question on "how are we going to judge if we are getting bette ror not": Easy. By seeing how often a person died, how perfectly mechanics were executed and how fast the boss died. "But yu can't see individual progress with this" -> This is an MMORPG. Raids are teamwork and individual skill doesn't matter. Group skill matters. If the group clears content faster, everyone got better and that's what the mentality in raiding should be: Progressing as a group. If you want to be an op solo player, go play FF15 or any solo title, but that's not a point for a team game.

Yeah, uhm... with regards solely to the bolded section...
That's all done by doing damage. If you don't die, you do more damage. If you don't mess up mechanics, you do more damage. Everything in this game is about doing more damage.
If even one person in a raid isn't pulling their weight and not doing enough damage, but they're still doing mechanics and surviving, that still means that the rest of the raid has to pick up the slack on that one person's missing DPS potential.

[Reynhart]

That's all done by doing damage. If you don't die, you do more damage. If you don't mess up mechanics, you do more damage. Everything in this game is about doing more damage.

If you stay in every AoE to keep DPS uptime, you're doing more damage, but put a lot of unneeded pressure on the healers, that you will probably blame if you die.
And you're certainly not "better" than someone that does slightly less damage than you but perfectly dodges all avoidable damage.

[WhyAmIHere]

If you stay in every AoE to keep DPS uptime, you're doing more damage, but put a lot of unneeded pressure on the healers, that you will probably blame if you die.
And you're certainly not "better" than someone that does slightly less damage than you but perfectly dodges all avoidable damage.

I mean... if you're intentionally standing in the bad, you yourself are to blame if you die, since you'd be making the healer's job more difficult by your own actions. You can't DPS if you're dead.

[Reynhart]

You can't DPS if you're dead.

You can if a good healer saves you. But a parser won't tell you that you're being carried by your healer.

[Satarn]

You can if a good healer saves you. But a parser won't tell you that you're being carried by your healer.

Actually it will. It's called "damage taken" and "healing done".

[Reynhart]

Actually it will. It's called "damage taken" and "healing done".

I'm pretty sure people won't care when they decide to kick those who don't "do enough DPS" for their taste.
Or they will simply kick the healer who is struggling to keep you alive because his DPS is too low, like Arkfrost witnessed in his static.