Dark Knight under review: Feedback to the Developers and Community Team

[Arkfrost]

I agree with almost everything (especially that grit should not be GCD and cost no MP), except for one thing: the skill lock depending on stances.
You might dislike me for this, but I'm on the side of players that feels that a main tank should not be trying to push dps, but instead focus on holding aggro on the boss and mobs, mitigating party damage (tanks should get more tools for this like blackest night or divine veil), mitigating damage on himself, moving the boss around to specific spots and just staying alive, not going out of tank-stance while maintanking, while it's the offtanks job to do damage and maybe do a few mechanics (like the kiss mechanic in o6s), but mainly focus on dps and not on things like sustaining himself, since that's the healer's job (so no need for lifesteal on souleater out of grit) and not staying in tank stance.

Of course due to the high dps checks we have in endgame raids it's favourable and for some part even required that even the main tank should stay out of tank stance as much as possible, but I see this as an issue with the raid design, not with the tanks. DPS checks should be lowered the same time steps to enforce tanks in tank stance are made.

I think the skill restrictions on dark knight depending on his stance are a good first step to enforcing tanks tanking in tank stance and offtanks not using tankstance. To be honest, I was super happy, when I read the 4.0 patch notes back then and thought "Oooh boy! Dark Knights are now forced to tank in tank stance and OT out of it. Finally square enix is making people play like their role says!" and I really hope this will be extended to paladin as well, maybe by making it so PLD can only block at all, use passage of arms and bulwark when in shield oath while requiescat and holy spirit can only be used in sword oath.

I also truly believe, that with "job identity" square enix is meaning exactly what I am talking about: That a tank should tank in tank stance and not be aiming towards dps. I think there are still several flaws, like for example the new stat tenacity. A great idea imho would be that tenacity should be a situational stat, meaning, that it significantly increases mitigation while in tank stance while it significantly increases damage for tanks while in an offensive stance (blood weapon, sword oath, deliverance).

[Booden]

Fantastic write up.

[Aniya_Estlihn]

You might dislike me for this, but I'm on the side of players that feels that a main tank should not be trying to push dps, but instead focus on holding aggro on the boss and mobs,

If you're even remotely decent at your job and learn the ins and outs of it, this is possible with and without tank stance. Tank stance is a learning, leveling and progression tool, it is not a requirement nor should it ever be seen as one. Enforcing tank stance is a way to drive away the tanks that currently exist and push more people away from trying out tanks—it's an EXCEEDINGLY bad idea.

I don't normally just spit on someone's opinion, but your's is the wrong one to have, and while you can play like that, it is wrong outside of casual play. Were they to ever enforce that the people who willingly play and enjoy tanking would cease to exist in this game as not focusing on doing damage in this MMO is not only the least engaging thing you can do, but it is so boring as a tank that we'd hardly be able to keep interest for more than a few minutes at most.

I also truly believe, that with "job identity" square enix is meaning exactly what I am talking about: That a tank should tank in tank stance and not be aiming towards dps.

You are confusing responsibility and identity.

Identity is just that, the identity of a job.

Darkside, Dark Arts, The Blackest Knight, Living Dead, Blood Weapon, and etc. all the core (or themed) skills of a job are the identity; this was the same for Low Blow, Reprisal, Delirium and Scourge in 3.X but... let's not get into that. What you are talking about is a tank's responsibility, which is universal among the three, it has nothing to do with an individual job and has very little to do with their identity as a whole. Dark Knight is a Dark Knight before it is a tank, it needs to be able to perform in solo instances without accommodation from other players using the skills and abilities that form its identity. Flipping the coin we know that it's party responsibility is that of a tank, but that is not what defines what a Dark Knight is a job/class.

You are so far off base that I'm not sure how to further reply.

[Keldion]

I really hope this will be extended to paladin as well, maybe by making it so PLD can only block at all, use passage of arms and bulwark when in shield oath while requiescat and holy spirit can only be used in sword oath.

Paladin players neither need nor want to return to the days of Heavensward.

I don't mind if Square experiments with a fight that uses a different fail condition outside of a dps check, but I do not want that to become the rule as opposed to the exception. If you start balancing an encounter around super tank busters, WAR will cheese through them with Holmgang if you make no further adjustments.

[Indicative]

-Consider removing either the MP cost or the GCD cost on Grit.

I completely disagree with this. There's a reason why Shield Oath, Sword Oath, and Grit all have a cost and a GCD requirement and Warriors do not.

Shield Oath and Grit have an IMMEDIATE 20% Damage Mitigation. Defiance does not. It increases their HP and HP recovered by healing but does not have any IMMEDIATE mitigation. This means that healers have to IMMEDIATELY heal the Warrior for their tank stance to be useful pre-damage. You don't have to do that for DRK or PLD.

You can't just give DRK a free 20% mitigation buff. Every tank that knows how to DPS uses their tank stance to mitigate busters and generous amounts of damage to help their healers. Otherwise they stick to their DPS stance (or in DRK's case just staying out of Grit). This would make it easier for DRKs to use, yes. But from a design and reasoning perspective it's not a good idea unless you want to rework Grit to be similar to Warrior's Defiance. This is one particular tank design you have to consider and why there's even a cost for Shield Oath/Grit relative to Defiance.

Side Note: Add Convalescence effect to Walking Dead. Living Dead is now fixed. Thnx

[shao32]

snip

its one or the other not both at the same time, removing the mp cost will be neat and will not broke it, now is extremely punishing and dont forgeth WAR have equilibrium to cover that hole in a second, they dont really need a healer for that, plus they can avoid tank stance penalty.

[Indicative]

its one or the other not both at the same time, removing the mp cost will be neat and will not broke it, now is extremely punishing and dont forgeth WAR have equilibrium to cover that hole in a second, they dont really need a healer for that, plus they can avoid tank stance penalty.

That's still forcing the WAR to use a cooldown to actually use their tank stance that they could apply elsewehere. That's still part of my point that WAR doesn't get their benefit the moment they push their button. WAR has a legitimate cost to them using Defiance. How is that not a penalty?

Removing any penalty from grit won't break the class, no. But it's also completely unnecessary and removes the whole reason the tank stances are the way they are. If you remove the MP cost OR the GCD it's a pretty negligible cooldown and DRKs already generate a lot of MP anyway so keeping the MP Cost but removing the GCD is a big non-issue. It basically turns into a Rampart minus the 90 second recast time.

On this same vein we should make PLDs always be in Shield Oath or Sword Oath and have no GCD rather then having to waste an extra GCD to go between each. DRKs have the luxury of literally hitting Grit again to take it off without taking a GCD to go on the offensive again.

[Nedkel]

I completely disagree with this. There's a reason why Shield Oath, Sword Oath, and Grit all have a cost and a GCD requirement and Warriors do not.

Shield Oath and Grit have an IMMEDIATE 20% Damage Mitigation. Defiance does not. It increases their HP and HP recovered by healing but does not have any IMMEDIATE mitigation. This means that healers have to IMMEDIATELY heal the Warrior for their tank stance to be useful pre-damage. You don't have to do that for DRK or PLD.

You can't just give DRK a free 20% mitigation buff. Every tank that knows how to DPS uses their tank stance to mitigate busters and generous amounts of damage to help their healers. Otherwise they stick to their DPS stance (or in DRK's case just staying out of Grit). This would make it easier for DRKs to use, yes. But from a design and reasoning perspective it's not a good idea unless you want to rework Grit to be similar to Warrior's Defiance. This is one particular tank design you have to consider and why there's even a cost for Shield Oath/Grit relative to Defiance.

Side Note: Add Convalescence effect to Walking Dead. Living Dead is now fixed. Thnx

I do agree partly, but you forgot about one major thing.
Using Grit takes 1 GCD and it decreases a total DPS output, since DRK dps is super heavly based around soul eater combo, taking 1 GCD out of it and a use some of the MP is kind off worse than using a little more MP for TBN.
Grit without MP cost would give you at least a second option to reconsider, if you dont have enough MP you could switch to tank stance and take the dmg with it, this change would make it easier to play drk overall, and you still will have to sacrifice some dmg for it.
PLD switching tank stance also take 1 GCD, but it does not affect him as much as DRK.
1-2-3 of the DRK makes up to 70% of his total dps.

[whiskeybravo]

I'm on the side of players that feels that a main tank should not be trying to push dps, but instead focus on:

holding aggro on the boss and mobs

Press button.

mitigating party damage

Press button.

mitigating damage on himself

Press button.

moving the boss around to specific spots

Press button while moving

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This is why players push the limits of what tanks are capable of. It's pretty foolish to think even if you nerf tank dps that people aren't going to find ways to maximize (or scrutinize) it anyways. And besides that, most people who raid want to get better. How are we going to judge if we are getting better or not if our dps is always stuck at 1000 (or whatever)? Did we live? Ok that's enough I guess..

I used to sort of agree, being against the str tanking meta early on in HW (mainly because of unfair cost to tanks compared to everyone else). But now I accept that it's simply much more fun to have options and really trying to push and see what you can do, versus being forced to only play one way all the time.

If you follow the logical conclusions of "tanks should just be tanks" it only ends with a mundane style of play and a lot less tanks in the community.

[shao32]

snip

i show it you in this way then, grit and shield oath are a complety disgusting waste of dps by only thinking to turning it on in combat, this is the most huge penalty you can face in this game, WAR defiance on the other hand is not, it dont cost resources, is not cost time to use it, you miss the hp when you activate defiance?, well yeah is a disadvantage use equilibrium on it bcs it cost a gcd.... o wait is not.
mmmm at least WAR will suffer the same damage penaltys like the other too, oh wait they have unchained, war legitimate cost is long at the 0,1 second you use equilibrium and unchained, DRK/PLD cost is tie to our neck during all the combat.

the real panorama is defiance apart of being ogcd have the tools to avoid the weakness in ogdc able to go in and out without any cost, hell defiance equilibrium is free agroo too, but for PLD is like stab a knife on you back to use shield and for DRK is like do a arakiri, you can generate the mp yes but the mp you waste on grit is potency loss at the end.

tank stances dont have a real purpose anymore, they are just mere agro buff for pulling and extra defense on mass pulling, at least with this change with will have a purpose on raid and extremes even for being a defense buff and "smooth" emergency turning on and i still im being generous bcs we still suffer a full time damage penalty, the stances are not working as a full time stance as SE want since heavensward.