The general player base needs to improve

[KaivaC]

Then it wont teach anyone anything. They'll release it, and you all will complain at how easy they are, because harder than current expert but weaker than rab or shin is still really easy. So you just wasted the devs time. The weaker players will just get carried through them like they get carried through rab. The actual difficulty needed to make an expert that can wipe people and not let dead weight be carried is harder than rab or shin, and closer to an ex trial like susano.

What you are suggesting is making the suggested newer Expert dungeons punishingly difficult right out of the gate. Again - straight to one end of an extreme, never trying to meet in the middle. You can't do that right out of the gate, because all it does is give casuals and casual-midcore level players only the options of either wiping through it and deciding never to run these new types of Expert dungeons again, or opting to get carried through it just for the rewards, and hopefully learning the patterns that will get them through. That's a Leeroy Jenkins situation. You're taking the suggestions that I've been making and saying that they need to be hard right out of the gate.

I'm suggesting putting a gradual difficulty curve, spread out through multiple Expert dungeons that increase in difficulty as you approach the last of whatever set of Expert dungeons you will have, with watered-down-to-slightly-less-punishing mechanics from whatever the Ex/Savage tier placed into it. And again, Shinryu is the absolute bar for difficulty. Nothing dungeon-wise should surpass what that fight through at players who were, at the most, ilvl310 in that time-frame. The very last Expert dungeon in 5.0? Sure, make it about Shinryu-level hard. But the preceding Expert dungeons should gradually build towards this point. The devs are capable of it.

I don't understand why you are not able to see a middle ground between the current dungeons and Savage/Ex (no, Shinryu is not a middle ground...he's just the epitome of a storyline and an appropriately leveled boss fight...the dungeons preceding him are another story). Why must it be 'either this or that' with you? That's a serious question. Why? I really want to know the answer to this. Do you deal solely in absolutes? Because in the past, you've suggested something similar about raiders as well, that raiders in general find practically anything dungeon-wise easy.

[KarstenS]

I think we need more easier content. It's not fun wiping at ex primals and 24 raids. And wipes happens, because it's too hard.

Then just don't do this content?

Issue solved and this would be btw. the intended solution for it.

The game doesn't tell [...] you're doing your rotation correctly,

Maybe lock the cool special effects behind a correct rotation and let it look weak (as it is), when done wrong?

[Miste]

Stop triple posting and edit your original post Tridus. No one cares about your post count lol.

Woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? lol

[Tridus]

Stop triple posting and edit your original post Tridus. No one cares about your post count lol.

But how am I going to get a purple forum parse if I don't work on my uptime count?

Kacho had it right - I didn't want to make a single post that was over 2 pages long and talking to three different people at once because I find those cumbersome to read. That's it. Apologies if you found it spammy. I probably should have turned off the signature on the other two, that would have helped with the forum clutter.

It's clear she broke up her posts to address each individual's post separately for the sake of clarity. Yes, she could have made a mega-post but it would have been cluttered with too many discussions.

Yep, thanks.

Maybe lock the cool special effects behind a correct rotation and let it look weak (as it is), when done wrong?

That's a neat concept. For people who have effects up, it'd be noticeable that sometimes you get these huge impacts and sometimes you don't.

[MoroMurasaki]

Stop triple posting and edit your original post Tridus. No one cares about your post count lol.

But raiders - those toxic elitist scum - that's where all the toxicity in this game is coming from >.>

[RiyahArp]

What you are suggesting is making the suggested newer Expert dungeons punishingly difficult right out of the gate.

Because punishing is the only way they get better. The way the difficulty is in this game in terms of individual mechanics means there is no gradual difficulty. There's no difference between an attack that lowers you to 50% HP for failng it, and one that lowers you to 1%. Both teach you the same lessons, the healer needs to recover you when you screw up, and dodging more or less is nice, but you don't die if you do and even if you do the healer will raise you. The fights that do teach you in the game have single, punishing mechanics that more or less wipe the party if one or more people fail them. Like if you don't sprint to the meteors in the chrysalis as a tank, everyone will die. If you don't position yourself perfectly from Rav's or titan's knockback moves you die and are out of the fight. But with Sophia you can literally die and fall nonstop; i cleared it with both white mages on the ground, 4 players, and me as only heals as rdm.

They'll seem punishingly difficult because to learn you really can't just keep having the healer fix your mistakes, nor the other dps carry you when you are on the floor. they probably will be a little less punishing than alte roite, who is pretty simple, but you need to have a mechanic like his where everyone has to go to their spots or they will die, and to a point the healer can't compensate for this nor the other member finish the instance.

You're saying gradual but in practice anyways it will be really hard.

And anyways, you truly only get better when you hit a wall and get mad/motivated enough to get over yourself and overcome it.

[VanilleFang]

Because punishing is the only way they get better.

Or they quit.

[KaivaC]

Because punishing is the only way they get better.

...What? I mean...what????

[HoodRat]

...What? I mean...what????

Riyah is into some kinky stuff.

[Avatre]

I think the first dungeon of each expansion should be a challenge dungeon that throws ALL the mechanics learned up to that point at you(and I'm not talking savage/ultimate stuff, but things that have been seen in any of the regular dungeons/HM dungeons to date - stack markers, look away prompts, stand still and don't do anything, anything that actually requires you to do specific actions to negate/lower damage taken/not get debuff)