The WOL and Mass Murder

[ObsidianFire]

The reason why it will never do that is to give everyone who plays the game room to RP how their own WoL reacts to things. You do have people who don't like the DRK quests because their own WoL would never react that way to what's going on. The MSQ tends to leave a lot of space for people to characterize their PC the way they want to. Some people really like that as their character feels like their character as opposed to having everything be dictated to them by the game. Other people don't like it as the MSQ has very little specified fallout for their character.

[NoblePigeon]

Thats almost true from my point of view. However the majority of those interactions were either passive (No we don't want to change) Or they are positive in our favor. My ideal situations is more along the lines of, we are in a completely hostile to us area. For example if the current story revelations about the 2 factions within Garlemald continues to the point where we need to side with one over the other. Id want us to be on the side of trying to save people who, from their perspective, see us as only a dangerous terrorist. Imagine if you will events in the story where you as a character are unable to save someone, not because of a monster, but simply because that person see's you only as the monster. Entering cities where Anti-WoL sentiment is at the forefront and all the while, even though you are being told that what you are doing is correct you see nothing but spite and animosity from those you are trying to change. Heavensward almost went full on in this route after the fall of the archbishop, Id want a similar take but taken to an extreme. Where we as a character and player are forced to see ourselves from the point of view of our enemies. I know that as a whole this is a pretty PG game but honestly having the absolute complexity of war thrown into our faces would be a very nice change. Stormblood wasn't a story about war imo, it was a story of the heroes liberating their woe-begotten allies. War has 2 sides and we only really ever see Garleans from the PoV of their military or their ex-patriots. Can you imagine what a normal citizen would think if they heard stories of a nigh unstoppable soldier tromping around their territory murdering their countrymen en mass? Where even their vaunted Legates' are powerless before the might of this monstrous weapon wielding an otherworldly power? I'll bet the WoL and scions have never really been faced with someone who was terrified of them to that degree

We've already gotten that though. The WoL was by no means popular when first going into Ishgard, although that was a result of Ishgard's insular, inward looking society than anything related to the WoL's legacy. And over time we were able to convince a hostile, war-weary populace to come to some kind of satisfying conclusion.

Going into Garlemald the exact same way would be pretty boring, honestly...and a little weird if it's not given proper treatment. I'd hate to be the imperial propagandist who has to put a negative spin on the "eikon slayer", since slaying eikons is exactly what the Empire is all about. Of course you could go with the "they've been killing all of our brave soldiers on the front lines!", but in Garlemald proper that might not hold up too much, since the majority of the Empire's armies are conscripted from non-Garlean nations, so most people living in the Imperial capital simply aren't going to be affected directly.

Of course we do get that point of view on the Prima Vista, since i remember one of the NPCs specifically saying they're reluctant to accept help from someone that's killed so many imperial soldiers, but they're willing to give the WoL the benefit of the doubt.

Going into yet another strange, unfamiliar land with an overly hostile population, without the backing of the Alliance or Scions is exactly how Heavensward began, and unless they give some kind of spin or different direction with it, I don't really think it's going to work out. Not to say that the better idea would be to have everyone in Garlemald see the WoL as a savior or look at them in any positive light.

I'd think it be far more interesting if the WoL stumbles into a society that's already quite fragmented despite the surface level order and seeming normalcy. The crew on the Prima Vista say pretty explicitly that Garleans feel like they're living under a shadow and are uncertain of their future, and for good reason: for a people that were so afraid of being bullied by everyone outside their borders, they're doing a very good job antagonizing everyone outside their borders and causing Eorzea, of all places, to unite under common economic and military policies, something unheard of in that land's history.

Basically, if they're gonna paint the WoL as a mass murderer, they'd need to find a damn good reason of why other than "they've been halting all of our glorious military conquests that was done mostly with our conscripted provincial soldiers".

[Cilia]

Oh boy!

[W]e have no idea how truthful [Asahi] is being.

... I'm not the only one questioning whether or not Varis really sent him, am I?

Honestly? Nothing comes to mind, every time Garlemald comes up it's either the PoV of us as the defenders, dealing with the brutality of their military (as though anyone in war could claim to be free of sin) or we are dealing with ex-patriots who have shunned Garlemald for one reason or another... I wouldn't call every person in Garlemald a villain simply on the unsanctioned actions of Nael, or the misguided pursuit of Gaius and even to a degree the nihilistic nature of Zenos.

No, that's wrong! Nael's actions were fully sanctioned by the Empire, Gaius' pursuits were fully sanctioned by the Empire before 2.0, and other than Varis denouncing Zenos as a worthy successor to the throne there's no condemnation of his actions. There are Garlean citizens who oppose the Imperial government and its fascistic ways, but those people don't publicly voice their dissent because to do so leads to imprisonment and/or execution - for themselves, their loved ones, or both.

Also, the Eorzeans are defending themselves from Imperial aggression - nothing more. Even the conflicts of Stormblood can easily be construed as preemptive counter offensives. Claiming that to be sinful is victim blaming.

<Garlemald's Good Points>

...

Moving forward, we will no doubt see more of the above. The developers have been very careful to keep each Legion as its own separate thing, yet so far we have mostly only seen Garlemald through the eyes of the Eorzeans. We will inevitably see even more positive things associated with Garlemald as the story takes us closer to it.

I'm not trying to deny Regula's virtue, but does that make him a genuine force of goodness? Are virtue and goodness one and the same? Does dying a hero's death make up for a lifetime of needless brutality? (See: Vegeta, Grom Hellscream)

Gaius' discontinuation of chemical warfare was purely for pragmatic purposes, just like his covert opposition to the Meteor Project. His intent was always to rule; ruling a smoking crater and/or a pile of corpses wasn't something he aspired to.

The other half of the Baut questline is pointing out how the Imperials spread propaganda that the Eorzeans really are savages who execute any and all POWs. This is a lie, as evidenced numerous times in Stormblood. He also states that some provinces are "unchanged" (not improved) by Imperial rule, but others where people would "welcome death with open arms." The latter is not acceptable because of the former.

Past ills inflicted upon the Garlean people does not justify overgeneralizing everyone unlike them as savages and using a self-fulfilling prophecy as excuse to try their hand at world domination. It provides a motive, which is not the same thing.

We may see more positive things out of the Empire. We may not. It's too early to tell. All I can say is I remain unconvinced any good is going to come of Varis' rule.

[SkyEdge1]

Oh boy!

No, that's wrong! Nael's actions were fully sanctioned by the Empire, Gaius' pursuits were fully sanctioned by the Empire before 2.0, and other than Varis denouncing Zenos as a worthy successor to the throne there's no condemnation of his actions. There are Garlean citizens who oppose the Imperial government and its fascistic ways, but those people don't publicly voice their dissent because to do so leads to imprisonment and/or execution - for themselves, their loved ones, or both.

Also, the Eorzeans are defending themselves from Imperial aggression - nothing more. Even the conflicts of Stormblood can easily be construed as preemptive counter offensives. Claiming that to be sinful is victim blaming.

I will redact my 'unsanctioned' statement as that was made in ignorance, as for the victim blaming, I don't think that a counter offensive is in and of itself a sin or an unwarranted act of aggression. But war, by its very nature, has 2 sides to the story. My main point was simply that we only are ever really treated in the MSQ to our PoV as the Warrior of Light and that of the conquering hero. And in the end it more or less always works out for us in that sense. I simply would like to be treated to a story where we see ourselves from the PoV of our enemies. Which given our propensity for wiping out Castrum and legions of imperial soldiers and besting some of the most notable warriors of Garlemald must make us seem quite the monster to those of Garlemald.

[YianKutku]

I simply would like to be treated to a story where we see ourselves from the PoV of our enemies.

We had this happen at the end of Heavensward, and it caused so much confusion that the devs had to explicitly explain what was going on.

So I don't think this is going to happen again.

[Alacran]

What many are trying to tout as peace i see as subjection. There is a difference there. Were a home invader to gain entry to an occupied residence, beat the father and son, rape the daughter and mother, kill the dog, eat the food, steal the money, and not leave, would you call his living there for twenty years a time of peace? Be on the losing side of that kind of "peace" and tell me who is the aggressor. You would just have to live there, a prisoner in your own home, listening to what was being done to your loved ones, by your new benevolent rulers, every day. That's not what i call peace.

Fighting against that evil isn't being an aggressor. I don't understand how anyone could confuse the two. You can't be an aggressor if you rebelled against a hostile foreign occupier. My example may be extreme, however there are multiple references to these exact acts being committed. Even the prostitutes complained of the of the nature of the Garlean soldiers, you need only ask J'ghonako in Ala Ghiri.

I have yet to begin on the human experimentation, why else would the roaders have flesh like torso's and the death claws faces?

[Cilia]

... [W]e only are ever really treated in the MSQ to our PoV as the Warrior of Light and that of the conquering hero. And in the end it more or less always works out for us in that sense. I simply would like to be treated to a story where we see ourselves from the PoV of our enemies. Which given our propensity for wiping out Castrum and legions of imperial soldiers and besting some of the most notable warriors of Garlemald must make us seem quite the monster to those of Garlemald.

Well... Doma and Ala Mhigo were both brutally conquered and oppressed territories (former nations); since they obviously did not like Imperial rule, being reviled by the inhabitants of those areas wouldn't make sense. It cannot be stressed enough that the protagonists' actions are purely reactionary / defensive - they are liberators and defenders, not warriors or conquerors. Considering that and the story being told from their perspective, naturally they are going to come across as rather clean.

A few of the Garlean civilians aboard the Prima Vista do offer an alternative view of the Warrior of Light, but a story where they fight on behalf of people who fear and revile them just doesn't seem feasible. You can't save people who don't want to be saved. Furthermore, while we should be infamous in Garlemald... not even every soldier knows who we are despite having made chumps of 3* legates, killed scores of their compatriots, and wrecked countless numbers of their warmachina. Even whose who do know who we are charge us anyway. Against all expectations, I have the feeling the Garlean citizenry... doesn't know who the Warrior of Light is, at least not in enough detail to have them run in terror or throw tomatoes at the sight of them.

*Legacy players get 4 for Nael.

What we individually want from the story is kind of... meaningless, I suppose? We don't write it, so all we can really do is roll with the punches. Stormblood was, yes, a tale of liberation, not war. The Eorzeans have not shown themselves to be particularly interested in making war... after all, they let Ala Mhigo rot for 20 years and only did something about it because they weren't left with much of a choice.

[Dualgunner]

Do SCoB players still get four legates chumped or does that not count? D:

[Enkidoh]

Do SCoB players still get four legates chumped or does that not count? D:

This is where the difference between those with the 'Legacy' story and everyone else differs, but ultimately it still works out having the same result. Nael (or rather, his sister Eulla-wearing-his-armour) is dead by the time of the Second Coil of Bahamut regardless as he she is just an aetheric construct given flesh by Bahamut from a lingering fragment of Nael's memories trapped in the Holocharts (this is why it creates a hologram of the Rivenroad complete with Dalamud above) and all the aether that the internment hulk is drenched in.

Eulla-as-Nael was canonically killed prior to the Calamity by the original Warriors of Light regardless of whether you are a 1.0 player with the 'Legacy' story or not, the only difference is if you're a 1.0 player with the 'Legacy' story, you are the one responsible (in that you are playing as that character), but if you're not on a 1.0 character with the 'Legacy' story, then it's presumed the original Warriors of Light never returned, only that they were responsible for Nael's original defeat at the Rivenroad.

Either way, Nael is dead no matter who your character is in Second Coil (to say nothing of the real Nael being very much long dead even before then).

[YianKutku]

(to say nothing of the real Nael being very much long dead even before then).

To be fair, the real Nael never became Legatus.

This actually reinforces your general point, since I don't think Eula counts as a Legatus by the time of ARR; presumably the aetheric construct she became in the Coils is not eligible for the position. So it is indeed true that the 1.0 Warriors of Light are the ones who get the credit for taking down the Legatus of the VIIth Legion.

not even every soldier knows who we are despite having made chumps of 3* legates

ARR and later players get two. Regula was credited to Zurvan. The Emperor almost certainly knows about that, and the VIth definitely know, but other than that the information may have been suppressed.