The WOL and Mass Murder

[NoblePigeon]

This actually touches on my main gripe with the story of Stormblood thus far, in that no one really questioned whether or not we were doing a good thing by invading and retaking Ala Mhigo. Although they tried to make it seem like Fordola was the main resistance for our incursion she was made to be an outlier in the conflict. It seemed to me that everyone else in Ala Mhigo couldn't wait for us to white knight our way in and save them from their oppressors. "

Pretty sure we got that "grey area" very abundantly clear in Stormblood. People weren't frothing at the mouth to rise up and revolt, the protagionists had to actually give them motive and incentive to do so when it was very, very risky. It showed that starting up revolutions isn't as easy as having fiery rhetoric.

Although if you were looking for more of "Domans or Ala Mhigans that support Imperial rule" you were probably disappointed, given that those two regions were some of the most poorly treated regions in the Empire.

[SkyEdge1]

Pretty sure we got that "grey area" very abundantly clear in Stormblood. People weren't frothing at the mouth to rise up and revolt, the protagionists had to actually give them motive and incentive to do so when it was very, very risky. It showed that starting up revolutions isn't as easy as having fiery rhetoric.

Although if you were looking for more of "Domans or Ala Mhigans that support Imperial rule" you were probably disappointed, given that those two regions were some of the most poorly treated regions in the Empire.

Thats almost true from my point of view. However the majority of those interactions were either passive (No we don't want to change) Or they are positive in our favor. My ideal situations is more along the lines of, we are in a completely hostile to us area. For example if the current story revelations about the 2 factions within Garlemald continues to the point where we need to side with one over the other. Id want us to be on the side of trying to save people who, from their perspective, see us as only a dangerous terrorist. Imagine if you will events in the story where you as a character are unable to save someone, not because of a monster, but simply because that person see's you only as the monster. Entering cities where Anti-WoL sentiment is at the forefront and all the while, even though you are being told that what you are doing is correct you see nothing but spite and animosity from those you are trying to change. Heavensward almost went full on in this route after the fall of the archbishop, Id want a similar take but taken to an extreme. Where we as a character and player are forced to see ourselves from the point of view of our enemies. I know that as a whole this is a pretty PG game but honestly having the absolute complexity of war thrown into our faces would be a very nice change. Stormblood wasn't a story about war imo, it was a story of the heroes liberating their woe-begotten allies. War has 2 sides and we only really ever see Garleans from the PoV of their military or their ex-patriots. Can you imagine what a normal citizen would think if they heard stories of a nigh unstoppable soldier tromping around their territory murdering their countrymen en mass? Where even their vaunted Legates' are powerless before the might of this monstrous weapon wielding an otherworldly power? I'll bet the WoL and scions have never really been faced with someone who was terrified of them to that degree.

[Ilenya]

Much like with Ishgard, we've seen the worst of Garlemald first. Yet we're seeing more of the good the closer we get to it - and that 'good', contrary to what some try to portray, isn't limited to non-combatants. There's also the simple fact that each legion, so far, has been treated as a separate entity by the story.

I'm trying to think. What in the MSQ and side stories have we seen that points to the good side of Garlemald? Honest question, because even the closest we've seen that I can think of (in 4.2, forgot his name) has his own personal vendetta and we have no idea how truthful he is being.

[SkyEdge1]

I'm trying to think.

Honestly? Nothing comes to mind, every time Garlemald comes up it's either the PoV of us as the defenders, dealing with the brutality of their military (as though anyone in war could claim to be free of sin) or we are dealing with ex-patriots who have shunned Garlemald for one reason or another. It's a huge gripe for me because there is no way in the seven hells that every citizen of Garlemald could be 'evil' that's just lazy storytelling. This is probably my only real problem with how we have dealt with our main enemy, Ascian notwithstanding. We as the WoL get carte blanch for all our actions, and the nation's and military we represent is again given a pass since it's always "for the greater good" but we see that good from our perspective only. The are hundreds of thousands of people living in Garlemald who have lived under the auspices of their government for ages and have grown up hearing about the supernatural monsters that plague other nations and how they are trying to rid the world of those monsters and bring peace under one banner. Yes the military we have been exposed to are cartoonishly evil, but that's one portion of a large empire. I wouldn't call every person in Garlemald a villain simply on the unsanctioned actions of Nael, or the misguided pursuit of Gaius and even to a degree the nihilistic nature of Zenos.

[Dualblade]

Rabanastre raid, many of the NPCs met there are Garlean civilians. The arts such as theatre thrived under Solus when he was alive, but Varis has been cracking down on much of it when he came to power. You'll want to read their dialouge/get info from other posters for more though since I keep forgetting myself to read all the non-important NPC dialouge there. But yes there are Garlean civilians you can interact with.

[Theodric]

Regula van Hydrus sacrifices himself to save a child towards the end of The Warring Triad quest chain. This happens after he temporarily aligns himself with the Warrior of Light and Scions in an effort to help take down Zurvan.

Gaius van Baelsar is revealed in a side quest in The Fringes to have put an end to chemical warfare, seeing it as distasteful.

A Garlean Centurion named Baut is involved in a quest chain in The Peaks. It is revealed that he was revered by the people living in the settlement he had control over as he was an honourable man who put a stop to the abuse of his predecessor. Rather than fight, he surrenders the settlement to the Eorzean Alliance upon their attempt to liberate it, yet the people threaten to kick The Resistance for fear of them taking Baut away from them. The quest chain ends with Baut being pardoned and settling down with an admirer of his.

Following on from Baut, he outright states that although the likes of Gyr Abania and Yanxia suffer under Garlean rule there are other, prosperous provinces elsewhere who are doing very well for themselves.

The Prima Vista situation is as Dualblade stated.

The lore book has some interesting nuggets, too. It reveals that the Garlean flag is meant to represent and honour all those who perished in Garlemald's name.

It also reveals the history of Garlemald, touching on the horrific abuse Pureblood Garleans suffered in the past. Their inability to manipulate aether led them to be driven out of fertile lands, forced to carve out a living for themselves in a frigid wasteland. This hardened them, causing them to live in small numbers and with no luxuries until their fortunes shifted upon the discovery of how to turn ceruleum into a power source for Magitek.

Moving forward, we will no doubt see more of the above. The developers have been very careful to keep each Legion as its own separate thing, yet so far we have mostly only seen Garlemald through the eyes of the Eorzeans. We will inevitably see even more positive things associated with Garlemald as the story takes us closer to it.

[Alleo]

Big, massive post incoming.

So if Zenos somehow suddenly decides to save us he is a hero too? It honestly does not even make sense that Regula would just throw himself between the sword and the kid since he barely knew him..for me it feels more like SE wanted to get rid of this character instead of at least having an interesting Garlean soldier still in the story. Yet we cant forget that he was on Varis side when he announced that all the beast tribes needs to die so he probably would have commited mass genocide if Varis wished it since he was his friend and completely on his side. Saying he is a good person or a hero because of one action is not good. We simply dont know what he did next to that and if he is truly honorable. He is pragmatic but being that does also not make someone a great person.

Gaius was pragmatic too. The only reason he went against Nael was because he knew that Eorzea would be kinda useless without anyone to rule over. He would still conquer the states for Garlemald even if the people dont want it. He was better than a lot of the other leaders of the legions but seeing how the others were thats not that much of an accomplishment. He still started a war in Ala Mhigo, he still brainwashed children to have good soldiers and he still gave Eorzea only an Ultimatium. He does not truly care for a peaceful solution either. I am not saying that he does not have his good side but he was still doing everything to give more countries to Garlemald which would mean that he would take away the freedom of a whole lof of people.

Baut is not an pureblood Garlean and honestly to date the only good one. I will only believe that with the province if we see it with our own eyes and truly hear if everything is alright. Also taking away the freedom of a country is still bad even if they live better. They could have given them a better live by trading their technic with these countries but instead they conquered them. Also seeing how Hiens ninjas started more rebellions elsewhere..well it seems that the people in other countries are not that fine too otherwise these rebellions would not have started.

The other good Garleans we know right now are the artists from Prima Vista and interestingly they are forced to flee from their country because Varis is even worse than Solus and even has something against free art. So even this situation paints a bad light on Garlemald and shows that peace probably wont come under Varis rule.

A flag is nothing more than an ideal that once was believed in. It does not mean that it represents the nation right now. I am quite sure you will find flags in real life too that are noble, yet the country behind the flag might be far away from that. You also did not excatly write which noble and good reasons Garlemald had to conquer Ala Mhigo or Doma? Since you said that they had their reasons too. The lore book states that their leader wanted more power thus conquered more and more countries. This is no good reason..They only saw their first primals when they already tried to conquer Doma and Ala Mhigo so "saving" the world from those false deities are not their true goal. They just want to get rid of them because they hinder them from getting the rest of the world under their rule. It was also their fault that the seal was weakened and a lot of the summonings were either directly out of fear towards Garlemald or because of the conflicts in Eorzea which are there thanks to Dalamud. They destroy the envoirment with their technic (which can be seen in the river in one of the new zones..), destroy the cultures and belief of a lot of people and with that they nearly killed of an important fish that was needed for survival in the ruby sea.

You are often going on about their past and kinda using it as a reason for their existing culture or if that makes them good people...I am quite sure that you will find hardship in a lot of cultures around the world and this gives them no reason to conquer the rest of the world or that this gives them any right to do that. Doma and Eorzea had nothing to to with their past. Nothing at all. If they had only conquered the tribes that hurt them in the past than thats fine and if they used Magitek to better their own lifes..thats fine too. But this does not give them the right to conquer the rest of the world, destroy the lands and cultures of who knows how many people.

So sorry there is nothing right now that shows Garlemald in a good light. I am not saying that this will always be the case but nothing in SB really gave the idea that they are anything else than the enemy. One or two good soldiers (which are not even purebloods) do not change all the informations about the horrible acts they did.

Like others I am kinda curious what you see as positive about them right now, other than some flags that are nothing but meaningless ideals, some informations about a harsh past and maybe a couple of good people. I get the feeling that its not about what they are right now which is as bad as you can get but more about the possibility they can have but sadly none of us know how that will end. Maybe the Garlemald at the end will be nothing like you imagined it to be.

If we talk about facts we should state facts that are happening or known and not speculations about the "could be`s".

Facts are:
- They started out small, found Magitek and thus grew in power. This gave Solus the view that Might rules all and thus he began to conquer the world that had nothing to do with their harsh start. They dont do that out of some good hearted reasons or to save the planet. They do this out of their belief that they have the right to rule everyone because they are strong..which is something you will find in every empire that wants to give a "reason".
- They came to Eorzea and Doma and for the first time they met the primals and thus a power that they could not easily defeat. So they want to find a way to defeat those primals because they are stopping them from ruling the world. They find out that they are summoned by beast tribes thus Varis later on decides that the best way to deal with that is just killing everyone that could summon a primal and with that they make the situation worse and worse and would totally just kill all the tribes even if they did not even summon one but since they see them only as creatures they probably have no problem with that.
-They got into a fight with Middy who was probably summoned to stop them. Middys "death" weakened/broke the seal and the primals were even easier to summon.
- Gaius decided that its better to get Ala Mhigo by creating a civil war. Still after all of that they did not get further than that and then project Dalamud was given an alright and Nael would have dropped a moon on Eorzea.
-The release of Bahamut destroyed quite a big part of Eorzea and left a whole lot of people in a bad state. The situation between the states and the tribes got even worse because both sides had to fight for survival after Bahamut. At the same time Gaius and his group was still there and was another stress factor. Thus they did not only increase primal summoning but they also made the living situation in Eorzea even worse. Ishgard was since then covered in snow which just shows how dramatic that was for the envoirement too.
-Gaius and his men brainwash children, and there was never true peace in Ala Mhigo. Only those that supported the empire got a better life, the rest had to live a life in poverty and danger and a lot of men probably got sent to other battles.
-Gaius gets the Ultima weapon and instead of trying a peaceful solution he says to the states that they either give up and become part of Garlemald or he will kill them all with Ultima. So again even he doing all of this only with fights and not with peaceful solutions.
-Zenos was sent in to rule both Ala Mhigo and Doma with an iron fist, making the situation even worse.
-Varis does not accept any kind of critisim against his rule, probably killing those opposed to him. Another faction seems to exist but the one ruling the government right now is cruel, not beneath genoicide and want everyone to follow his view alone. People need to flee Garlemald if they go against him otherwise they will be probably killed.
- The envoirment suffers under Garlemald since they like to bomb places, rivers are not fresh anymore, forest are destroyed (which angers the elementals and which creates fear under the Slyphs).
-They also stop any kind of culture or belief and have no problems of destroying whole cities and their cultures. Instead of at least accepting some parts of the culture into their own or let them live along side it, they only allow the view of Garlemald. Thus everyhing is built as they want it, completely destroying the nature and view in these parts. Also some animals are near exstinct because people cant do their festivals anymore.
-Provinces are threated horrible if there is any kind of rebellion going on even if this rebellion is small. Even other provinces seems to not like their rule because more rebellions went on after Doma got their country back.

So in the end we know right now that they dont try to trade with other countries peacefully, they want everything under their rule and only with their view of the world. A rule under Garlemald would mean the loss of all the different views, beliefs and cultures of the whole world. Magitek everywhere would probably be bad for the envoirment too. Wars are often fought with the people that are conquered and there is no place for a different opinion.

Really I have no problem with an enemy that has good and bad points. But I cant see any real good point. (Other than maybe Magitek but this could be shared peacefully..) Also they seem to want to go the Allagan way of things and we know how that ended..with another calamity (and the last one was even started by them too) and the destruction of the Allagan empire. And like the Allagans they are not above horrible experiments and creating weapons of mass destructions.

[SkyEdge1]

Regula van Hydrus sacrifices himself to save a child towards the end of The Warring Triad quest chain. This happens after he temporarily aligns himself with the Warrior of Light and Scions in an effort to help take down Zurvan.

Gaius van Baelsar is revealed in a side quest in The Fringes to have put an end to chemical warfare, seeing it as distasteful.

A Garlean Centurion named Baut is involved in a quest chain in The Peaks. It is revealed that he was revered by the people living in the settlement he had control over as he was an honourable man who put a stop to the abuse of his predecessor. Rather than fight, he surrenders the settlement to the Eorzean Alliance upon their attempt to liberate it, yet the people threaten to kick The Resistance for fear of them taking Baut away from them. The quest chain ends with Baut being pardoned and settling down with an admirer of his.

Following on from Baut, he outright states that although the likes of Gyr Abania and Yanxia suffer under Garlean rule there are other, prosperous provinces elsewhere who are doing very well for themselves.

The Prima Vista situation is as Dualblade stated.

The lore book has some interesting nuggets, too. It reveals that the Garlean flag is meant to represent and honour all those who perished in Garlemald's name.

It also reveals the history of Garlemald, touching on the horrific abuse Pureblood Garleans suffered in the past. Their inability to manipulate aether led them to be driven out of fertile lands, forced to carve out a living for themselves in a frigid wasteland. This hardened them, causing them to live in small numbers and with no luxuries until their fortunes shifted upon the discovery of how to turn ceruleum into a power source for Magitek.

Moving forward, we will no doubt see more of the above. The developers have been very careful to keep each Legion as its own separate thing, yet so far we have mostly only seen Garlemald through the eyes of the Eorzeans. We will inevitably see even more positive things associated with Garlemald as the story takes us closer to it.

I'll concede the point there as I was unaware of the Baut story quest and I was not privy to the lore book facts presented therein. The Prima Vista story is a little iffy for me, if only because its not yet complete and its told from one point of view. I will admit that, upon thinking back much of my opinion has been tainted by my personal distaste for the "conquering Hero" trope we seem to always be led to in the MSQ. To put it another way, war is an ugly, complicated, grey blob of a thing, and I just wish our armor wasn't always so shiny at the end of it all.

[ObsidianFire]

If your main problem is that we the WoL aren't experiencing war as a complicated thing, go level Dark Knight. Because man does the WoL have issues with how people view them (and how the WoL view themselves) in those Job Quests. One of the big themes of that job is that there is a very big difference between being the WoL from everyone else's perspective and being the WoL from the WoL's perspective.

[SkyEdge1]

The DRK questline is actually one of my favorites because of those reasons, I simply wish the WoL as a character and plot device would see those complexities as well, not just via the DRK story. It seems I'm woefully ignorant of some of the side quests and the details they add to this particular subject, but my main annoyance still remains with the MSQ and it's handling of war as a plot point.