Throwing the tome: 4.2 Summoner Feedback

[Karshan]

Again, this thread is not about our good place, it's how SMN plays and it's gameplay, not what it can or cannot do numbers or utility wise. So please read more of the pages before.

[EllieShadeflare]

Contagion in HW is absolutely not the same as Contagion in SB.

Did I ever say different? What did I say in my post, so you don't misrepresent what I said?

Meanwhile, we didn't "lose" Contagion. It became a much more versatile ability by providing a flat DPS buff that interacts not only with your own spells (DoTs included) but also your healers' and other caster party members' spells. Yes, at the moment, most parties favor Ifrit at the moment for Radiant Shield, but there's a reason they reduced the cast time of Garuda and Ifrit to GCD.

Contagion is still part of our kit, it's a more useful and applicable Magic Vulnerability Debuff that actually helps the party as much as they help our own damage. You can even quickswitch between Ifrit and Garuda to ensure full coverage of buffs, Radiant Shield for physical vulnerability and Contagion for magic vulnerability.

I address that Contagion has been reworked, and I address that it has been reworked into something more applicable to itself and to others. SMN has always been in a weird spot where it WANTED to be Black Mage by being as selfish as possible, only doing BLM's job with pets and DoTs.

This is what I'm talking about when I say the kit doesn't interact with its themes anymore. The old ability had a noticeable and unique interaction with a separate core mechanic of the class (Pets + DoTs). It also had a grace period of ~15 seconds to work, since Contagion only needed to be cast at some point before your dots fell off. This went a long way to mitigate the pet being as stupid as a sack of bricks.

And people had issues with the overemphasis on DoTs and on the clunky as hell pet. A question becomes "why work with clunky mechanics just for the theme of a job?"

It's been hacked down to just a generic damage up for everything you do, except your auto-attacks. It doesn't have any unique interaction with any other specific part of your kit anymore. You just do it. It is undeniably stronger as a result, but I find that to still be incredibly bland and uninteresting.

It seems to sound so, but you now actually interact with your party in a way that few other jobs can. If you can pull it off, using both Ifrit and Garuda in an opener can allow for full coverage of vulnerabilities, allowing for a magic buff that benefits you and your healers from Contagion, and a physical vulnerability that is coincided with a mini-Auto Attack for your tanks.

Also, under your argument, all Contagion did was extend DoTs. That's... definitely a boring interaction between pets and your DoTs. Like... that's the bargain bin of interaction. Sad thing is, that's not the only real way to interact with DoTs either, with Bard interacting by having their mechanics being pulled from their DoTs and BLM being able to proc not only an extension of their DoT, but also turn that extension into a burst spell!

This also introduces an annoying as hell failure chance. With the old contagion you had a minimum of ~13 seconds, if you were trying to catch Miasma II. Now the pet can still delay it for basically no reason and it has awful ramifications. You can even just lose the debuff and have it go on cooldown anyways because summoning demi-bahamut kills your current pet.

Blame the pet, and it always did that before. Also, citations needed on losing the debuff by summoning Bahamut.

Which, again, brings me to the question of: why the hell does everything in this job try and conflict with something else?

Because every job has something like that. See: Black Mage's rotation that is constantly at risk of clipping itself, Red Mage's support skills that have NOTHING to do with DPS (ESPECIALLY its abuse of Verraise), White Mage being the pure healer, but having weaker heals than ASTROLOGIAN, Scholar being more of a DPS than an actual healer, Machinist's RNG combo, and probably more examples that I can't think of but other players of other jobs can explain far better than I would be able to. This clunkiness isn't unique to SMN, every job has SOME degree of clunkiness if you don't understand it or get worked into it. Except MAYBE Red Mage, but Red Mage's endgame clunkiness comes from what people want out of its players (the rez slave).

"Why would you waste the first Trance?"

Because it is better dps wasted. You will always lose damage by not getting Aetherflow going.You delay all of your future trances and bahamuts. This is why the jobs design is backwards and nonsensical.

That goes against every opener I've ever seen, which all stem from this particular document which is still considered the most trustworthy SMN guide in the community. It also goes against a Balance-approved guide from before Imouto's guide, which by the by, SMN's rotation hasn't fully changed between 4.0 and 4.1 beyond "Ruin III all the things!" If you're burning DWT before you at least get off Shadowflare or at least Tri-Disaster, you are doing something wrong.

At best? You don't use the full 15s of Dreadwyrm Trance, but you at least apply Tri-Disaster (for the 110 potency DoTs) and Shadowflare (for the additional 55 potency), cast maybe a Ruin III or two, and then Deathflare. And that's only assuming you're facing off against a boss that heavily favors faster kills (See: Shinryu EX and Susano-EX). If you're not doing AT LEAST THOSE TWO THINGS (Or at the very least, Tri Disaster on the second DWT, since Shadow Flare would probably be on cooldown), you effectively waste a buff and waste DPS in general.

[Karshan]

He never said you transe and DF. He said you waste the transe. Use only 4 seconds out of the 16 of your first trance is a waste of it, but yes it is a DPS gain so it's how it's done.
Only use 2 of the 6 GCDs you would normally use, but can't, otherwise you're delaying AF, remains a definition of a waste. Every SMN here knows it's for the sake of the opener and AFand does it, but the very, very principle of shortening a buff is, in it's very core, clunky. I don't know how anyone cannot be bothered by that level of clunkyness.

Also, your answer to Flana about clunkyness : yes every job has some clunky in it, but he clearly mentioned conflicting mechanics, not just clunkyness. Like when Foul used to cost mana (spending mana on regen phase : conflicting mechanic)

[EllieShadeflare]

He never said you transe and DF. He said you waste the transe. Use only 4 seconds out of the 16 of your first trance is a waste of it, but yes it is a DPS gain so it's how it's done.
Only use 2 of the 6 GCDs you would normally use, but can't, otherwise you're delaying AF, remains a definition of a waste.

I wouldn't see it as a "waste", considering you'd get it back rather quickly in 20s, but I suppose it's my bad for misinterpreting.

Every SMN here knows it's for the sake of the opener and AFand does it, but the very, very principle of shortening a buff is, in it's very core, clunky. I don't know how anyone cannot be bothered by that level of clunkyness.

If you're not using Tri-Disaster and Shadow Flare, and anything else that'd benefit from this (other than excess GCDs), then yes, I'd agree. However, Dreadwyrm Trance is less of a hassle to lose in this situation than say, Enochian, because ditching Enochian removes our most potent spell (Foul) but ditching DWT gets us closer to Bahamut. I mean, that's why it has a manual eject button in Death Flare.

conflicting[/B] mechanics, not just clunkyness. Like when Foul used to cost mana (spending mana on regen phase : conflicting mechanic)

Oh, sure, there's plenty of those too (but I wouldn't say that spending mana in the MP regen phase is a conflict. Historically, that's where we always hardcasted Thunder. What would be a conflict is expecting to waste MP on a spell that isn't a Fire spell in a phase that disables MP regen to boost your Fire spells).

To use BLM, as it's the class I am most familiar with, Fire IV takes longer to cast than Fire without the excuse of being able to refresh Astral Fire. Granted, this was nullified quite a bit due to the 4.05 adjustment, but it still clashes with the very design of the Enochian-revamp, versus its original form where you could be greedy and be punished by losing AF and THAT'S IT.

Even worse, you have Blizzard IV's Umbral Hearts, which only fully benefit BLM's AoE game by allowing Double Flare, and only gives a whopping 1 Fire IV for the single target. Granted, an additional Fire IV is still a 555 potency spell, but considering that Blizzard IV does more to benefit the AOE game than the Single Target, despite itself being a ST causes a great deal of disconnect on what the job wants to do.

But if I were to find additional examples, I'd point out the fact that Sheltron completely lacks a Off-Tank counterpart for its specific utility, being a wasted slot when the Paladin is chosen as an off tank (which is after a tank swap or if DRK is in the party). Granted, Unchained now has that particular issue, but its lack of counterpart makes sense considering it's supposed to be a buff to remove the tank-stance damage nerf. Considering Sheltron is designed to help the PLD's MP, it's basically a wasted button in a fight that doesn't have tank swaps and you're with a DRK. I'd point out the absurdity of letting Syphon Strike have a Dark Arts interaction. I'd point to WHM's Secret of the Lily, which in any almost any other MMO would be overpowered as hell but loses its effectiveness in FFXIV due to how DPS oriented the game is, on top of Cure and Cure II being the least used healing spells of a White Mage in a good situation. I'd point to SCH's base healing tools (Adlo, Physick and Sustain) being utterly limp noodles and being forced to rely on an impotent, stupid fairy and a pool of healing oGCDs that are limited by a a currency ON TOP OF being tasked as the DPS healer. I'd point to Astrologian, the supposed "jack of all trades, master of none" healer that is supposed to kinda do the roles of SCH or WHM with a slice of solid but RNG-based support, but instead implemented as an outright master of all healer that can outheal White Mage, outshield Scholar, and have much better support to boot with its only flaw being that it lacks damage. Hell, the very nature of the discovery that Verraise works with Dualcast created a conflicting mechanic by virtue of how the Community likes to treat such discoveries.

Hell, I'd even argue that Samurai conflicts significantly with itself, considering it's supposed to be the top personal DPS in the melee slot, but is generally lower than Monk in terms of damage.

[Shurrikhan]

But if I were to find additional examples, I'd point out the fact that Sheltron completely lacks a Off-Tank counterpart for its specific utility, being a wasted slot when the Paladin is chosen as an off tank (which is after a tank swap or if DRK is in the party). Granted, Unchained now has that particular issue, but its lack of counterpart makes sense considering it's supposed to be a buff to remove the tank-stance damage nerf. Considering Sheltron is designed to help the PLD's MP, it's basically a wasted button in a fight that doesn't have tank swaps and you're with a DRK.

It's this (underlined) part that gets me.

Were Shelltron and Intervention equally meant just for defense, then it would be a mere matter of bloat (as compared to combining them back into Aegis Boon or the like to reduce personal damage taken by 30% or someone else's damage taken by x% or up to y eHP cap). But, since Intervention cannot return mana, PLD's toolkit is balanced upon MT-specific utility atop Shield Swipe (which could have similarly been worked into OT by simply causing Intervention to proc Shield Swipe upon damage absorption) that become mere burden in the OT position. Unchained is the only other example of this, and as it is infrequent and far more generally useful, scarcely as awkward.

Or do I need to bring in a Monk and have them explain Greased Lightning and Riddle of Fire?

Those aren't necessarily contradictory, though, especially seeing as RoF re-allows double-weaving, which tends to be necessary for one's openers and allows for greater oGCD damage density... which is precisely what Damage bonuses increase that Attack Speed bonuses cannot. It may feel like shit until a 2.22 base pre-GL GCD or so, but it does at least meet particular needs and makes strengths out of its weaknesses.

Riddle of Earth and its requirement to actually take damage rather than merely be attacked, however (frequently having to drop Shake it Off to ensure the damage doesn't zero out)...
...Well, I guess even that's not contradictory so much as just unnecessarily stupid. Shelltron can still block and contribute toward a hit that would be fully absorbed by shields either way, so why should shields cost Monk its Greased Lightning when damage is overly mitigated? (Especially given that the effect is irremovably attached to a mitigation effect?!) Now that's contradiction.

[EllieShadeflare]

It's this (underlined) part that gets me.

Were Shelltron and Intervention equally meant just for defense, then it would be a mere matter of bloat (as compared to combining them back into Aegis Boon or the like to reduce personal damage taken by 30% or someone else's damage taken by x% or up to y eHP cap). But, since Intervention cannot return mana, PLD's toolkit is balanced upon MT-specific utility atop Shield Swipe (which could have similarly been worked into OT by simply causing Intervention to proc Shield Swipe upon damage absorption) that become mere burden in the OT position. Unchained is the only other example of this, and as it is infrequent and far more generally useful, scarcely as awkward.

Not just that, but Intervention still has a purpose for Off Tanks, since you can place it on the Main Tank so I can understand why it's there. Sheltron just flat out lacks an OT counterpart, which doesn't do it any favors.

More on subject, however, this is just an incredibly solid proof of the existence of this "conflict of mechanics" existing in other jobs.

Or do I need to bring in a Monk and have them explain Greased Lightning and Riddle of Fire?

[Wayfinder3]

To be fair, SMN needs to be dealt with, this job needs an identity beyond the pet caster because it's stepping on the heels of BLM as the heavy DPS caster and, RDM as the high utility caster. the nerfs to SMN allow blm to further distinquish itself but it's still smuthering RDM to an alarming degree. Because Verraise is so powerful (but only actually at it's best in world prog when "everything" is unknown.) RDM gets completely forgotten. Allow me to explain. Since a decent amount of the player base that raids uses some sort of guide, video, text or diagram. This actively shortens the novelty that RDM raises provides. if you know every mechanic thats coming before you enter, SMN single raise is more than enough of a buffer to get you there while providing significantly more dps than RDM. To combat this, SMN needs it's own identity and MUST lose it's ability rez. find it's own niche, it's literally attempting to steal the chances of both the other casters and is a unhealthy job in it's current iteration.

[EllieShadeflare]

To be fair, SMN needs to be dealt with, this job needs an identity beyond the pet caster because it's stepping on the heels of BLM as the heavy DPS caster and, RDM as the high utility caster. the nerfs to SMN allow blm to further distinquish itself but it's still smuthering RDM to an alarming degree.

It's reaching that identity, a middle of the road DPS that can provide good utility and good damage, in a similar fashion to what Monk ought to be. Being the middle man isn't a bad thing, to be honest, and it still maintains an identity of having constant burst phases (DWT + Demi Bahamut) and reliable oGCD usage (through Aetherflow abilities) alongside its pets and DoTs. To compare, BLM is the pure GCD job, being the ONLY job who completely lacks access to oGCD attacks and RDM is a mobile caster with constant oGCDs, a defined burst phase, and decent utility. Buuuut, as for Red Mage...

Because Verraise is so powerful (but only actually at it's best in world prog when "everything" is unknown.) RDM gets completely forgotten. Allow me to explain. Since a decent amount of the player base that raids uses some sort of guide, video, text or diagram. This actively shortens the novelty that RDM raises provides.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, the unhealthy fixation our community has on Verraise is... sad. All things considered, RDM can pull decent numbers and will probably get some pretty darn good results once it gets access to more Crit while keeping its DH. I have a feeling a massive part of its currently terrible numbers is due to the fact that there's simply not enough people using it BEYOND progression. I mean, none of its (competent) spells and skills save for Scatter is anywhere below 180 potency, it can stay on the move with each two casts (thanks Dualcast!) and has a combo series that can pull off 1780 potency in a mere 12 seconds (including the casting finisher and Corps-a-corps and Displacement), creating a PPS phase of 148 per second. That's only 50 potency below the PPS of Fire IV, after accounting for Enochian and Astral Fire III. It may very well turn out that Summoner becomes the support, and RDM the in between, but we'll see.

With that said, Red Mage's actual utility ability, Embolden really needs a buff, but mostly in the sense of making it affect non-physical classes too.

if you know every mechanic thats coming before you enter, SMN single raise is more than enough of a buffer to get you there while providing significantly more dps than RDM. To combat this, SMN needs it's own identity and MUST lose it's ability rez. find it's own niche, it's literally attempting to steal the chances of both the other casters and is a unhealthy job in it's current iteration.[/QUOTE]

SMN shouldn't lose its raise, period. It's been a part of the class since the start, and it does nothing to replace the Verraise of RDM. A Red Mage can successfully save nearly every DPS on his own by using Verraise. A Summoner simply cannot, and the party won't be able to proceed if it loses too many players for too long. It also wastes a Swiftcast that could very well be used to switch from pet to pet to provide the full coverage of vulnerability (though the faster casts of summons make this point a little more moot).

Really, Red Mage's actual utility should be buffed or the damage should be buffed. SMN doesn't need to be changed beyond QoL enhancements.

[Wayfinder3]

SMN's ability to combat Rez isn't the jobs real claim to fame anymore, it's one of the few things allowing it to power-creep Rdm. Warriors lost berserk which was the jobs signature skill, smn can lose a skill they often never use. Give RDM more off global abilities such as a regen/ shield/ mp refresh. Refresh was RDM's claim to fame in FF11, why was it given to bard and MCH. The devs don't care about nostalgic abilities, and the player base doesn't really care too much either. nobody is grabbing a whm because of Holy, it's because cure 3 is very effective, whm would still see play if Holy was taken from them.

[Wayfinder3]

Keep in mind SMN only swiftcast swap pets in the opener or at points in the fight where they can redo said opener, other wise it's primarily used to gain a Ruin 3 use when Bahamut is out and thats just because it's the stronger cast vs ruin 2. No SMN is actually swapping pets during the fight to keep BOTH buffs applied. This means SMN doesn't have a true purpose for their swift cast meaning a prog comp will have 3 instant rezs before a cast where as depending on your rdm they'll have 3 or 4. swiftcast means a lot more to rdm than it does to smn as the fight drags on because swiftcast means you can avoid a jolt 2 cast however, in prog you could hold it. This would award you the extra rez but, im not trying to down play verraise but lets not kid ourselves, SMN combat rez is nearly just as effective because swiftcast isn't as mandatory as the fight drags on, where as rdm may want use it as rng dictates.