Throwing the tome: 4.2 Summoner Feedback

[Karshan]

He never said you transe and DF. He said you waste the transe. Use only 4 seconds out of the 16 of your first trance is a waste of it, but yes it is a DPS gain so it's how it's done.
Only use 2 of the 6 GCDs you would normally use, but can't, otherwise you're delaying AF, remains a definition of a waste. Every SMN here knows it's for the sake of the opener and AFand does it, but the very, very principle of shortening a buff is, in it's very core, clunky. I don't know how anyone cannot be bothered by that level of clunkyness.

Also, your answer to Flana about clunkyness : yes every job has some clunky in it, but he clearly mentioned conflicting mechanics, not just clunkyness. Like when Foul used to cost mana (spending mana on regen phase : conflicting mechanic)

[EllieShadeflare]

He never said you transe and DF. He said you waste the transe. Use only 4 seconds out of the 16 of your first trance is a waste of it, but yes it is a DPS gain so it's how it's done.
Only use 2 of the 6 GCDs you would normally use, but can't, otherwise you're delaying AF, remains a definition of a waste.

I wouldn't see it as a "waste", considering you'd get it back rather quickly in 20s, but I suppose it's my bad for misinterpreting.

Every SMN here knows it's for the sake of the opener and AFand does it, but the very, very principle of shortening a buff is, in it's very core, clunky. I don't know how anyone cannot be bothered by that level of clunkyness.

If you're not using Tri-Disaster and Shadow Flare, and anything else that'd benefit from this (other than excess GCDs), then yes, I'd agree. However, Dreadwyrm Trance is less of a hassle to lose in this situation than say, Enochian, because ditching Enochian removes our most potent spell (Foul) but ditching DWT gets us closer to Bahamut. I mean, that's why it has a manual eject button in Death Flare.

conflicting[/B] mechanics, not just clunkyness. Like when Foul used to cost mana (spending mana on regen phase : conflicting mechanic)

Oh, sure, there's plenty of those too (but I wouldn't say that spending mana in the MP regen phase is a conflict. Historically, that's where we always hardcasted Thunder. What would be a conflict is expecting to waste MP on a spell that isn't a Fire spell in a phase that disables MP regen to boost your Fire spells).

To use BLM, as it's the class I am most familiar with, Fire IV takes longer to cast than Fire without the excuse of being able to refresh Astral Fire. Granted, this was nullified quite a bit due to the 4.05 adjustment, but it still clashes with the very design of the Enochian-revamp, versus its original form where you could be greedy and be punished by losing AF and THAT'S IT.

Even worse, you have Blizzard IV's Umbral Hearts, which only fully benefit BLM's AoE game by allowing Double Flare, and only gives a whopping 1 Fire IV for the single target. Granted, an additional Fire IV is still a 555 potency spell, but considering that Blizzard IV does more to benefit the AOE game than the Single Target, despite itself being a ST causes a great deal of disconnect on what the job wants to do.

But if I were to find additional examples, I'd point out the fact that Sheltron completely lacks a Off-Tank counterpart for its specific utility, being a wasted slot when the Paladin is chosen as an off tank (which is after a tank swap or if DRK is in the party). Granted, Unchained now has that particular issue, but its lack of counterpart makes sense considering it's supposed to be a buff to remove the tank-stance damage nerf. Considering Sheltron is designed to help the PLD's MP, it's basically a wasted button in a fight that doesn't have tank swaps and you're with a DRK. I'd point out the absurdity of letting Syphon Strike have a Dark Arts interaction. I'd point to WHM's Secret of the Lily, which in any almost any other MMO would be overpowered as hell but loses its effectiveness in FFXIV due to how DPS oriented the game is, on top of Cure and Cure II being the least used healing spells of a White Mage in a good situation. I'd point to SCH's base healing tools (Adlo, Physick and Sustain) being utterly limp noodles and being forced to rely on an impotent, stupid fairy and a pool of healing oGCDs that are limited by a a currency ON TOP OF being tasked as the DPS healer. I'd point to Astrologian, the supposed "jack of all trades, master of none" healer that is supposed to kinda do the roles of SCH or WHM with a slice of solid but RNG-based support, but instead implemented as an outright master of all healer that can outheal White Mage, outshield Scholar, and have much better support to boot with its only flaw being that it lacks damage. Hell, the very nature of the discovery that Verraise works with Dualcast created a conflicting mechanic by virtue of how the Community likes to treat such discoveries.

Hell, I'd even argue that Samurai conflicts significantly with itself, considering it's supposed to be the top personal DPS in the melee slot, but is generally lower than Monk in terms of damage.

[Shurrikhan]

But if I were to find additional examples, I'd point out the fact that Sheltron completely lacks a Off-Tank counterpart for its specific utility, being a wasted slot when the Paladin is chosen as an off tank (which is after a tank swap or if DRK is in the party). Granted, Unchained now has that particular issue, but its lack of counterpart makes sense considering it's supposed to be a buff to remove the tank-stance damage nerf. Considering Sheltron is designed to help the PLD's MP, it's basically a wasted button in a fight that doesn't have tank swaps and you're with a DRK.

It's this (underlined) part that gets me.

Were Shelltron and Intervention equally meant just for defense, then it would be a mere matter of bloat (as compared to combining them back into Aegis Boon or the like to reduce personal damage taken by 30% or someone else's damage taken by x% or up to y eHP cap). But, since Intervention cannot return mana, PLD's toolkit is balanced upon MT-specific utility atop Shield Swipe (which could have similarly been worked into OT by simply causing Intervention to proc Shield Swipe upon damage absorption) that become mere burden in the OT position. Unchained is the only other example of this, and as it is infrequent and far more generally useful, scarcely as awkward.

Or do I need to bring in a Monk and have them explain Greased Lightning and Riddle of Fire?

Those aren't necessarily contradictory, though, especially seeing as RoF re-allows double-weaving, which tends to be necessary for one's openers and allows for greater oGCD damage density... which is precisely what Damage bonuses increase that Attack Speed bonuses cannot. It may feel like shit until a 2.22 base pre-GL GCD or so, but it does at least meet particular needs and makes strengths out of its weaknesses.

Riddle of Earth and its requirement to actually take damage rather than merely be attacked, however (frequently having to drop Shake it Off to ensure the damage doesn't zero out)...
...Well, I guess even that's not contradictory so much as just unnecessarily stupid. Shelltron can still block and contribute toward a hit that would be fully absorbed by shields either way, so why should shields cost Monk its Greased Lightning when damage is overly mitigated? (Especially given that the effect is irremovably attached to a mitigation effect?!) Now that's contradiction.

[EllieShadeflare]

It's this (underlined) part that gets me.

Were Shelltron and Intervention equally meant just for defense, then it would be a mere matter of bloat (as compared to combining them back into Aegis Boon or the like to reduce personal damage taken by 30% or someone else's damage taken by x% or up to y eHP cap). But, since Intervention cannot return mana, PLD's toolkit is balanced upon MT-specific utility atop Shield Swipe (which could have similarly been worked into OT by simply causing Intervention to proc Shield Swipe upon damage absorption) that become mere burden in the OT position. Unchained is the only other example of this, and as it is infrequent and far more generally useful, scarcely as awkward.

Not just that, but Intervention still has a purpose for Off Tanks, since you can place it on the Main Tank so I can understand why it's there. Sheltron just flat out lacks an OT counterpart, which doesn't do it any favors.

More on subject, however, this is just an incredibly solid proof of the existence of this "conflict of mechanics" existing in other jobs.

Or do I need to bring in a Monk and have them explain Greased Lightning and Riddle of Fire?

[Karshan]

snip

Agreed with the fact that DWT is less of a hassle to "waste" than enochian (way less), but it is the very principle : you hit an eject button on a buff. You do it because it's a benefit, sure and what I'm tackling is that we ever be in a situation where losing a buff becomes beneficial. It should never be the case, cause it means bad design of the buff.

They just need to allow AF to be hit anytime and we'll be really fine with that . I mean DRGs continue gathering eyes while in LoTD. They lose them if they gather more than 3 before, but you just enter LotD and can continue mirage dive your way to next phase.

Actually even if they have to nerf things to maintain DPS levels the way they are, I would gladly see them remove blockouts : AF available in transe (even without the kit, just the skill itself), Transe and Rouse available in Bahamut. Sure it means more down time ruin spamming, but it allows more flexibility for the fight, and I would ask for nothing more. You can do the current "flow" on normal occasions, but a special boss jump doesn't put you in a situation where you need to haste or skip one of the quarters of the wheel : you'd just overlap them.

As for all your exemples (thank you for the time and effort btw), I see a lot of "swing and miss" by Square Enix, and an offset between expectations and reality. They're all exemple of poor thought designs, even porr balance choices (regarding SAM, we all know selfish don't work here cause 1 - Square is afraid to overbuff and 2 - let's talk about the elephant in the room, everyone talks about rDPS but really actually likes / wants a buff for fflogs and BLM and SAM won't provide you any).

But I don't see conflicting ones in the sense we hear it (maybe we fail at explaining it correctly).
DWT is a buff so your true purpose is to maintain it as long as poss...wait no not true, abort the first one. Because of an external mechanic ? No, because of your own kit. You do that to follow the n°1 rule of SMN : AF always on cooldown. Poor design.
Also : second absolute HS SMN rule : you never clip Dot... oops new SMN is kinda messy on that part too, at times. I guess the reset of TD kinda also feels weird to optimize.

PS : Although I like a lot of your examples of bad designs, the examples with tanks are not really the best. High level guides reject the concept of MT and OT, as well as the idea of a "no swap fight". There should be no such things, precisely to benefit the parts of your tool kits you miss depending on your role. It should be First tank (to go), Second tank.

[EllieShadeflare]

Agreed with the fact that DWT is less of a hassle to "waste" than enochian (way less), but it is the very principle : you hit an eject button on a buff. You do it because it's a benefit, sure and what I'm tackling is that we ever be in a situation where losing a buff becomes beneficial. It should never be the case, cause it means bad design of the buff.

Or it's designed to prey on a mindset as a trap, with the existence of the manual eject button making much more sense in Stormblood versus Heavensward. But Deathflare could be given a boost (which I detail below).

They just need to allow AF to be hit anytime and we'll be really fine with that . I mean DRGs continue gathering eyes while in LoTD. They lose them if they gather more than 3 before, but you just enter LotD and can continue mirage dive your way to next phase.

It'd probably require a new UI for Aetherflow to support both the existence of Aethertrail Attunement and Aetherflow, since the former uses the latter's UI to showcase having it.

Actually even if they have to nerf things to maintain DPS levels the way they are, I would gladly see them remove blockouts : AF available in transe (even without the kit, just the skill itself), Transe and Rouse available in Bahamut. Sure it means more down time ruin spamming, but it allows more flexibility for the fight, and I would ask for nothing more. You can do the current "flow" on normal occasions, but a special boss jump doesn't put you in a situation where you need to haste or skip one of the quarters of the wheel : you'd just overlap them.

See above, though being able to at least get the stacks even if you couldn't use them in DWT would be a good thing.

As for all your exemples (thank you for the time and effort btw), I see a lot of "swing and miss" by Square Enix, and an offset between expectations and reality. They're all exemple of poor thought designs, even porr balance choices (regarding SAM, we all know selfish don't work here cause 1 - Square is afraid to overbuff and 2 - let's talk about the elephant in the room, everyone talks about rDPS but really actually likes / wants a buff for fflogs and BLM and SAM won't provide you any).

I try to be concise with my arguments, so it helps to bring examples.

BLM is in a pretty good spot though, as an equivalently played BLM can massively benefit from other buffs to an extent that most jobs WISH they could do, and still maintain a pretty sizable rDPS. I could see potential for development if they go full ham in making Umbral Hearts useful for Single Target, particularly by giving a full discount on Fire spells in Astral Fire, but Samurai... may need a buff.

But I don't see conflicting ones in the sense we hear it (maybe we fail at explaining it correctly).

It would be a useful thing to know, so I would have a better understanding on what it is I'm discussing.

With that said, I pointed out mechanics that directly conflict with each other, such as the introduction of Greased Lightning in Monk's arsenal, designed to showcase that Monk's primary tool other than its uniquely designed combo design is its disgusting amount of speed, and the ability to provide what boils down to a death of a thousand punches (Kenshiro and the Joestars would be proud) which happen to be decent potency in their own right. Two expansions in, and Monk gains a skill that S L O W S T H E M D O W N , N E G A T I N G T H E P O I N T O F G R E A S E D L I G H T N I N G ' S U N I Q U E A D V A N T A G E , in a similarly contrasting and clunky way that Machinist and Bard were both leveled up to 50 as mobile, ranged classes that suddenly gained a cast bar at level 52.

There's also this example given by Shurrikhan (though as a side note to them, I hope the above point I made explains why I pointed to Riddle of Fire as a contrasting element)

Riddle of Earth and its requirement to actually take damage rather than merely be attacked, however (frequently having to drop Shake it Off to ensure the damage doesn't zero out)...
...Well, I guess even that's not contradictory so much as just unnecessarily stupid. Shelltron can still block and contribute toward a hit that would be fully absorbed by shields either way, so why should shields cost Monk its Greased Lightning when damage is overly mitigated? (Especially given that the effect is irremovably attached to a mitigation effect?!) Now that's contradiction.

DWT is a buff so your true purpose is to maintain it as long as poss...wait no not true, abort the first one. Because of an external mechanic ? No, because of your own kit. You do that to follow the n°1 rule of SMN : AF always on cooldown. Poor design.

Not... really... kinda? There's a manual abort button in the first place (which can't be said about any other buff) though, I suppose they could improve this by allowing manually aborted Death Flares a buff depending on how soon you launch it to compensate for the "lost" buff.

Also : second absolute HS SMN rule : you never clip Dot... oops new SMN is kinda messy on that part too, at times. I guess the reset of TD kinda also feels weird to optimize.

Generally, clipping is a rule for most DoTs, but for SMN, (formerly) BLM and BRD, they're exceptions. Bards need to keep using Iron Jaws to keep Caustic Bite and Storm Bite up as much as they can for Repertoire, Black Mages had to use Thundercloud ASAP or lose a pretty sizable burst, and SMN gets Tri-Disaster so often and it comes with a Ruin II/III/IV buff on top of it, so that's a fair reason that you'd clip Bio III and Miasma III.

PS : Although I like a lot of your examples of bad designs, the examples with tanks are not really the best. High level guides reject the concept of MT and OT, as well as the idea of a "no swap fight". There should be no such things, precisely to benefit the parts of your tool kits you miss depending on your role. It should be First tank (to go), Second tank.

I use the term "Main Tank" and "Off Tank" because those terms are the most common and point out the existence of fights that don't require heavy amounts of swapping (See: most EX fights) as they do occur albeit infrequently. In either case, it still doesn't make sense to entirely lack an MP tool on a job that relies on MP while in the phase that'd use the most MP (off tank/DPS stance Paladin would need all the MP they can get for Holy Spirit). And no, DRK can't be used as a fair comparison point because DRK still has its primary MP generation tools even without Grit (in fact, I'd even go so far as to say that Blood Weapon is more efficient an MP tool than Blood Price is).