Growing tired of this Stigma

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The problem is that it really doesn't change from fight to fight or patch to patch. Bard has been meta since 2.0. NIN since it was added, same with MCH.

Hahahaha, no. Machinist was borderline trash upon release. Bard also saw a substantial decline throughout various portions of Heavensward. The whole reason Bard and Machinist became meta was due to the devs constantly needing to buff them until they pushed both beyond the casters. The only job to never once get benched from the meta has been Ninja.

AFAIK it has been. There were many saying NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH was meta throughout 3.0 and into 4.0

May have been later in 3.0 though. I stopped raiding during Gordias and didn't pick it back up until creator.

Probably people overextending 3.4. BLM basically slotted in until Creator, though SMN has a fair bit of popularity. BRD/MCH traded places with one another primarily based on which the devs buffed this patch, and if you ran a heavy physical or magical comp. Only after 3.4 did people start to work out how incredibly OP DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH were.

[XovanPrince]

No MMO should have a pure dps class. Period. Honestly no class should be pure anything. Those classes need utility, as of right now they are just generic dps.

[Bernkastelx]

Its 2018 we have the technology it shouldn't be difficult to look at the data and buff pure dps classes to the point where they are doing the same as utility classes overall.

[Miste]

Only job that was worse than MCH at 3.0 launch was AST. I remember one of my friends said people would straight up leave parties if there was an AST in it; that's how bad off they were.

I can add on to this with my experience since I immediately tried to main AST at 3.0 launch.

Basically I was forced to switch back to WHM by my static group even though I wanted to main AST.

Eventually I left that group, but no other groups would accept me as AST. Even by Midas people were still skeptical and most groups told me no, until I found one that let me play AST.

So in my experience back then majority of groups on my server just locked AST out or refused to take it. I basically couldn't find a static that would accept AST for all of Gordias and only found one after they got buffed for Midas, yet that even took a bit of convincing the raid leader that I was sure I could play it well and heal well on it...which in the end I did prove as such.

[Joe777]

No MMO should have a pure dps class. Period. Honestly no class should be pure anything. Those classes need utility, as of right now they are just generic dps.

Actually I disagree with this. If you have too much utility it just makes people get choosy even more. A few utility jobs and then some raw dps for utility jobs to support is honestly fine. If people are preferring utility jobs over raw dps jobs then that means the raw dps jobs are not performing well enough for the meta to consider them viable. Of course, using only utility jobs for maintained buff upkeep is also the main culprit here as to why the meta is ignoring raw dps jobs. For the meta to truly consider raw dps jobs, that raw dps would have to match what the party's dps averages out at with less buff upkeep as opposed to having more upkeep.

In short, the DPS meta is a fusterclucking mess right now. I don't even think it'll ever get fixed either. While I would say since I don't follow the meta and play casually it isn't my problem, nor anyone else's like me, but that isn't true on account of the reason this thread was made.

[Enyalios]

Until they fix my need as a bard to rely on dragoon’s I shall continue to avoid samurais like the plague. They offer nothing to a group which means when played poorly they’re just a bad DPS. At least a poorly played ninja or dragoon offers something in return

[Joe777]

Until they fix my need as a bard to rely on dragoon’s I shall continue to avoid samurais like the plague. They offer nothing to a group which means when played poorly they’re just a bad DPS. At least a poorly played ninja or dragoon offers something in return

Unless they use what they offer at the wrong time, or not at all.

[Aeliott]

Community mindset is inescapable even if they're wrong. I mean. Okay, yeah, great NIN, MNK, DRG - they all bring more raid dps to the party than a SAM. But all these numbers and utility....it's all in a vacuum. It all assumes that everyone is playing optimally. And if, to pull a random % out of an orifice, 75+% of players aren't even optimal, let alone above-average at these meta/utility jobs, or using said utility, or they die all the time to mechanics, well then what's the point? Are they still essential to your Byakko EX kill-for-friend group?

So-and-so job brings +5% raid dps to an average group, plays averagely. Amazing SAM player brings no extra raid dps, but MORE than makes up for the raid dps loss because they actually know what they're doing. I know who I'd prefer on my team. I know that's a super dumbed-down example, but my point is player skill is overwhelmingly the biggest factor in how valuable they are, not gear, not by what DPS class they're playing (having a NIN doesn't automatically shave minutes off a fight), and it's player skill in co-ordination that makes the meta what it is. For a sarcastically-worded PF group that excludes SAM and BLM slots - composition is generally meaningless. Maybe they feel cool for using what top raiders do, but they're not top raiders. They're probably average joes whose utility will not stop them scapegoating something else for their inevitable failure.

So you ignore them, and find sensible people. Are the DPS jobs out of balance? Do they need changing? Yes. Is it as drastic as everyone makes out? Not even close. I appreciate it's annoying having to endure under a stigma where you might be excluded now and then, but ask yourself if you're really likely to succeed in a group so narrow-minded in the first place. I mean come on, it's on the PF in the first place - if they were at a level where it mattered it wouldn't be on there.

[NephthysVasudan]

<snip>

Nice to see i'm not alone in this.....foolishness is rampant it seems.

[TraeSnow]

Snip

Not trying to start something here. I could just be ignorant of this topic.

So if a SAM pulls 6k raid DPS, and a Ninja pulls 6k raid DPS. Shouldn't that be fair?

They both achieved the same DPS amount. They just had different ways of getting there.

SAM got there by using personal DPS.

NIN got there by adding the amount of damage they provided to the group to their personal.

To me, I feel like...why should SAM be the highest DPS in the game period. Personal DPS, yes. But I feel like asking for SAM to be higher than Jobs that have their personal DPS added to their utility DPS is just asking for SAM to be the best in dps - period.

Is it not balanced if they both achieve the same goal, but have different ways of getting there?