Tank dps harrasment

[winsock]

So many headaches could be solved with a simple "How does everyone want to do this?"

What you're really saying:
So many headaches could be solved if people just did what I want.

Some already spent the day pushing themselves and just want a calm wind down of the night, that's okay.
Some don't care about pushing themselves and just want tomes and a little loot, that's okay.
Some maybe new/newish and getting a feel of the place, that's okay.

I should be able to expect a certain minimum from a healer right? They can't just go AFK because they're winding down and expect 3 ppl to clear it for them.
What do you think we should be allowed to expect at a minimum?

At a minimum, I expect a maximum of cure II spam. This is enough for nearly all wall-to-wall pulls. If they fail to meet this maximum I request it. If they aren't even willing put in the effort required to press 1 button repeatedly, they shouldn't have queued IMO.

[KaivaC]

snip

"Standard" according to who? The forums? By your personal experience? Personally, I rarely pull more than two groups at a time because that is manageable, I don't have to worry about DPS not using their AOEs (which is potential for an argument), it gives my healer some DPS uptime, and its a consistent pace at the very least. Rarely had a complaint. If people want me to pull some more, I'll go if the healer consents to bigger pulls - otherwise, my rule is no more than 2, maybe 3 or wall-to-wall if I feel like using HG and I'm confident the DPS actually know how to AOE (it's really obvious when a RDM isn't using Scatter, DRGs aren't hitting doom spike, SMNs not using Painflare/Bane or really even DOTs on enemies, etc.). If some uppity DPS wants to pull more, then hey, sure, I'll take aggro twice - third time they do it, they are the tank for that group.

Nobody should be assuming that big pulls are automatically the thing. Tanks may not be comfortable with large pulls, or may be undergeared, or healers cannot simply handle it, or you have DPS that don't AOE. What is standard for you may not be standard for others, nor should that change. A tank should not feel pressured to HAVE to pull bigger if they are not comfortable with it. It should be a consideration, yes, especially when a healer if the one requesting it. If DPS are so impatient that they want a faster run, then they need to get a premade.

[NephthysVasudan]

<snip>

^This

DPS have no business pulling ahead of the tank..regardless of timers or chains or stacks...unless this is a party with a confidence in handling the situation as needed..not randoms.
Yes it sucks...but when you pull ahead of the tank and the tank is in mid-stride unable to compensate...and you wipe out..guess whose to blame....sure as hell not the tank. (And yes if they are pulling ahead they should know how to drag the aggro back to the tank - problem is..its a bit of a coin toss - again...communication - if the tank knows whats up - the tank can plan for it...you ambush the tank with an pull ahead - the party will likely suffer and worse..wipe out - I've seen this so many times it makes me cry a little on the inside >.<;;; )

As its been said many times before...communication is everything in these situations. Assumptions don't work. And before someone else pipes up with a "will yours is no standard" - its not a matter of standards..its a matter of common decency and common sense...not your "I play it my way or the high way" - Its the party or nothing...not your personal preferences above the party. Better a tank who is cautious and careful than a reckless fool. (Same goes for DPS/Healers who pull ahead of tank).

And again...I don't have a problem "balls to the wall" super pulls....generally I end up dealing with it just fine either way...in-spite of my misgivings. My problem is the failure to communicate and coordinate with your party...putting them in a situation that leads to gripes/frustrations/and making a game less than fun/enjoyable.

Just because I know how to deal with it..doesn't mean everyone else does...and forcing it on them won't work. Teaching them how to deal with it...that's an entirely different matter.

And yes.... 2 mob pulls are generally expected/normal.

[Altena]

I am just going to be brief to this..

"Standard" according to who? .....etc

Go queue up to a DR:Expert 10 times as anything except a tank, then tell me what the tanks pull during these duties..
9 times out of 10 you will see big pulls.

That's what dictates "standard". What is normal or majority behaviour by the community.

...Nobody should be assuming that big pulls are automatically the thing...

Why not? It's the "standard" thing.

I am just stating what the community has come expect when running a dungeon. If a tank is not comfortable then by all means they are free to do single groups if they like. They just need to expect that some less-patient members of the community may try and pull them along a little quicker.

[NephthysVasudan]

I am just going to be brief to this..



Go queue up to a DR:Expert 10 times as anything except a tank, then tell me what the tanks pull during these duties..
9 times out of 10 you will see big pulls.

That's what dictates "standard". What is normal or majority behaviour by the community.



Why not? It's the "standard" thing.

I am just stating what the community has come expect when running a dungeon. If a tank is not comfortable then by all means they are free to do single groups if they like. They just need to expect that some less-patient members of the community may try and pull them along a little quicker.

On my Server? 75-90% are 2 mob pulls.
Explain that. :P

For the 25% rest? Yeah.....I try not to remember those. >.>; And generally I survive them anyway.....key word..survive.

[Altena]

On my Server? 75-90% are 2 mob pulls.
Explain that. :P

For the 25% rest? Yeah.....I try not to remember those. >.>; And generally I survive them anyway.....key word..survive.

You do realise that 2 groups are pretty much "wall to wall" in most recent dungeons right?
You do realise "big pulls" equates to "pulls greater than 1 group of mobs" right?

[KaivaC]

snip

I do not know what it looks like on Primal, but on Aether, I've seen more 2-3 mob pulls than I have with 'big' pulls. Depending on the dungeon, 3 mobs aren't really big pulls, and some places are very difficult to even get a massive pull on and survive consistently. Again, I will be patient with DPS pulling for me twice, maybe a third time if I'm feeling generous. But unless the healer consents, I will not pull anymore than I already do and if DPS continue to pull like this (by this point, I will have spoken up), then I will not take any aggro. They do it again, they're getting shirked. If they again pull ahead of me, I'm vote-kicking.

Mayhap we need more than what you've posted to determine what this standard is, because honestly, it sounds like it's what you've personally experienced, not what the overall community states is the actual standard.

Also, for your reply above, 2 mobs is not wall to wall. Now you're just fitting terms to fill out your argument.

[Altena]

I do not know what it looks like on Primal, but on Aether, I've seen more 2-3 mob pulls than I have with 'big' pulls.

That is actually quite baffling to me..

It's definitely the "standard" on Primal.. In fact I haven't seen a single DR:Ex that has done single pulls since 4.2 came out.
And not for a long time before that either..

Sure, I am basing this on personal experience, but what else do you base it on? It's not like we can make an accurate poll.

Also, for your reply above, 2 mobs is not wall to wall. Now you're just fitting terms to fill out your argument.

I presumed Nepthys' sentence was a typo and they meant "2 groups" as they were previously stating they pull 2x groups normally.
There aren't really any dungeons that even have "groups of 2 mobs" unless it's just 2x "elite" mobs (off the top of my head out of the 2 new dungeons, I can only think of the 2x Nue at the end of Hell's Lid). Groups of 3 or more mobs are standard for dungeon design. This is why I am hellishly (no pun intended) confused by the "2 mobs" statement.

2x Groups of mobs is very frequently wall-to-wall. At most 3x groups on the longer runs..

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I do not know what it looks like on Primal, but on Aether, I've seen more 2-3 mob pulls than I have with 'big' pulls. Depending on the dungeon, 3 mobs aren't really big pulls, and some places are very difficult to even get a massive pull on and survive consistently. Again, I will be patient with DPS pulling for me twice, maybe a third time if I'm feeling generous. But unless the healer consents, I will not pull anymore than I already do and if DPS continue to pull like this (by this point, I will have spoken up), then I will not take any aggro. They do it again, they're getting shirked. If they again pull ahead of me, I'm vote-kicking.

Mayhap we need more than what you've posted to determine what this standard is, because honestly, it sounds like it's what you've personally experienced, not what the overall community states is the actual standard.

Also, for your reply above, 2 mobs is not wall to wall. Now you're just fitting terms to fill out your argument.

I am also on Aether and if I'm not the tank doing massive pulls, someone else usually does. Personally, I categorize pulls as follows:

"I am sooooo booooored" pulls: Singular packs.
"Standard" big pulls: 5-9 mobs
"Can't stop; won't stop. There's nothing to slow me down!!!!" pulls: The entire room

Naturally, the last one is most entertaining.

For a specific example, I'll use Ala Mhigo. The standard pull after the first boss is to grab the first two packs of Magitek Gorillas and burn them down before proceeding. The insane pull is running them into the courtyard, picking up the doges and tagging that final Magitek by the cannon. Having spammed Ala Mhigo for my mount, I usually see the standard affair, though that crazy pull happened often enough. I virtually never saw single packs.

[KaivaC]

/shrug

I can see when I'm losing an argument. Very well...my own definition of what I see as a standard pull is obviously different. I can admit when I lose an argument. My point still remains on 'DPS pulling for the tank'.

(On that note, I just noticed my signature just up and completely disappeared. Why?)