I miss the old PvP.

[Crit]

A. The PLD didn't cover the healer or protect them.
B. The MCH didn't One Shot the healer.
C. The PLD placed Full Swing on the MCH and didn't have any support.
D. The MNK didn't follow the PLD and the BRD was off on his own target.
E. The MCH was lucky with his crits.
F. The healer wasn't wearing any Vit accessories and set himself up for it.

So if anything you illustrated how a lack of team play allowed the MCH to burn down the healer. Which illustrates everything ThirdChild and I have been saying that any class was effective against any class.

Guess what. That strategy is all gone now.

That's why I say in 3.x the mindset to solo carry was encouraged because the majority of players are incompetent. When a class like machinist can take 2 seconds to kill someone then?????

Strategy is much more encouraged now more than ever because classes don't offer anything by themselves, only together lol

[Divinemights]

That's why I say in 3.x the mindset to solo carry was encouraged because the majority of players are incompetent. When a class like machinist can take 2 seconds to kill someone then?????

Strategy is much more encouraged now more than ever because classes don't offer anything by themselves, only together lol

I am sorry to disappoint you but 4.2 Machinest can drop dps job in close range with merely 4 buttons: wild fire, stun gun, snipe, heated split.
I am defending 4.0 system not because I think it is good, i just like it separate PvP and PvE.
It doesn't mean I think it takes a lot skill to play
The fact is, if you got killed by a SMN, BRD, and MCH this expansion, there is nothing to be shame about, because who knows whether it is the player skill that killed you or it is the job mechanic killed you.
I dare you to play Frontline as Monk without a healer follow you.
This is the job right now requires most skill to play this expansion.

[Wintersandman]

Strategy is much more encouraged now more than ever because classes don't offer anything by themselves, only together lol

Actually it is different. 3.x was focused on how well a team could perform defensively. 4.x is focused on how well a team could perform offensively. It's not that there is more strategy but the focus has shifted. Which is also probably why healers are so tough now because players didn't know how to protect them.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

That's why I say in 3.x the mindset to solo carry was encouraged because the majority of players are incompetent. When a class like machinist can take 2 seconds to kill someone then?????

Strategy is much more encouraged now more than ever because classes don't offer anything by themselves, only together lol

Strategy was just as encouraged then. Anyone who thought themselves a one man army was just an easy target to cc and blow up. Baiting defensive cooldowns was a thing. Locking down heals or syncing bursts was a thing. Sure, a few proved themselves quite capable of carries, but that was hardly the norm. It goes without saying that 4 strong players on a team doing whatever they want aren't going to outperform 4 strong players cooperating with each other. That was true even in 3.x PvP.

[aeoncs]

4.x is much more team based, more interactive, more thought process because of how much of a small skill ceiling there is. 3.x did indeed encourage the wrong mindset, the stigma of single handedly affecting matches by yourself, not as a team or unit like it's supposed to

XD

Sure, the lack of almost any kind of cc, rotations, smart target swapping or that you barely have to pay attention to your own and the enemies cooldowns makes the gameplay so much more team based and thought inducing.
Yes, certain Jobs had ridiculous RNG burst that was definitely not OK but apart from that, if you wanted to perform well in 3.X Feast you had to show a level of situational awareness and coordinate with your team in a way that someone like you can't even comprehend.

So just sit back, be thankful to SE that they enabled you to reach Top 100 with the gameplay and rating changes and stop your gibberish about a time where you would have been as close to a Top 100 spot as individuals are to buying a new large plot in 4.2 ;^)

[AchaNoYumi]

So just sit back, be thankful to SE that they enabled you to reach Top 100 with the gameplay and rating changes and stop your gibberish about a time where you would have been as close to a Top 100 spot as individuals are to buying a new large plot in 4.2 ;^)

Who t f are you???

Excuse me, first off Crit wasn't lucky to get Top 100, he earned that fair and square.

Second of all, your brain can't even comprehend the amount of experience Crit has in TEAM ORIENTED PVP. Not only does he scrim, but he was apart of Aether league. If anyone has a decent opinion on what ACTUALLY IS TEAM ORIENTED PLAY, It's Crit, not you.

Third of all. Please humour me and make a LP team on Primal so we can show you very easily what it means to have Team Based Skill. You have no idea. Mercy in less than 3 minutes, I promise.

Who are you again?

[AchaNoYumi]

I dare you to play Frontline as Monk without a healer follow you.
This is the job right now requires most skill to play this expansion.

???? What are you even talking about.

Anyone who rolls up 1v8 in frontline is going to get murked, even a healer... Bad example is bad.

And which job requires the most skill to play? You didn't specify I'm afraid.

[Guesswhat]

4.x is not more team friendly, it's rather due to the lower skill ceiling a lot more people understand how to teamwork. In other words: Technically speaking it's not more team oriented, but practically speaking it is.

The best thing about the 4.x system is the accessibility it allowed, but that could have been tweaked into the 3.x system as well by, for example, lowering level requirements.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Second of all, your brain can't even comprehend the amount of experience Crit has in TEAM ORIENTED PVP. Not only does he scrim, but he was apart of Aether league. If anyone has a decent opinion on what ACTUALLY IS TEAM ORIENTED PLAY, It's Crit, not you.

Experience and opinions on team oriented play, and yet he admits to never having played any 3.x PvP. . . Fling insults and play the cheerleader if you want, but his credibility is pretty suspect from that alone, and his attitude is pretty poor at that.

I'm not gonna be the one to sit here and say he did or didn't reach top 100 legitimately, but I CAN say that, 1: Top 100 really isn't an accurate measure of a player's skill, and 2: Top 100 in 4.x PvP is even less an accurate measurement. Especially given the changes to scoring, rules and features of the mode, as well as the depth (or lack thereof) of the system.

[Trinket]

I'm a bit disappointed in the last few pages of this thread because it just kind of devolved into mocking Crit and disregarding his arguments. Although he did have a bad attitude, you can't ignore that he made some pretty good points (will follow-up on this in a bit).

You did not play 3.x and therefore you cannot accurately speak to whether it was team based or not.

I don't really like singling people out, but this bothered me more than it should have. This is a terrible mindset to have and I encourage everyone to not have the "You didn't experience it, so you can't say anything about it" attitude because it does not promote discussion and seems like a way to shut someone's input out with minimal consequences. This also seems like it could grow over time into a "you didn't play x season, so you wouldn't know what high-level gameplay is because you only played y season" mentality, which is not very healthy. People can watch older gameplay and judge from what they see whether something was team-oriented or not.


This next part will be strictly about Feast.

4.x is not more team friendly, it's rather due to the lower skill ceiling a lot more people understand how to teamwork. In other words: Technically speaking it's not more team oriented, but practically speaking it is.
The best thing about the 4.x system is the accessibility it allowed, but that could have been tweaked into the 3.x system as well by, for example, lowering level requirements.

I agree with this sentiment. I'd argue 3.x and 4.x are equally team oriented. However, I also believe that 4.x is more consistently team oriented because of the sole and undisputable reason that an individual has less carry potential due to the minimized kit; therefore, they are forced to adapt and rely on their team more often than not.

I think everyone can agree that mashing 9 buttons isn't as fun as 3.x gameplay. To make it short, I believe that the negative impact of the 4.x changes to the combat system are over-exaggerated. It raised the skill floor and lowered the skill ceiling. The new system enabled more players to join the PvP community (or at the very least play the modes) with a smoother learning curve and therefore more of a chance to get to higher level games. I'm confident that if the system stayed with the 3.x kit and got even more skills because of the new 4.0 skills, people would not be inclined to play PvP as much because the amount of buttons would be overwhelming and intimidating. I think the expansion of the PvP community should be something we celebrate.

The new system also makes games less-dynamic. It streamlined stats, removed any aspect of "chance" like critical hits, parries, block, and the like. I'm of the mentality that dynamic gameplay equates to more fun, but too much dynamics is too chaotic. I really like the way they evened out the stats because it puts everyone on a fair playing field with no sucker punches being thrown.

Now that I've said all that, I do want them to add two to three more moves to the current PvP kits. I don't think that would be too much for anyone but would also give enough variety to provide the dynamic feeling that 3.x PvP could provide. I also want them to make Bolt/Sprint a base action instead of an Additional skill. And put more useful stuff with (or buff) Additional skills that compete with each other more.

In conclusion, 3.x was more fun but 4.x is more attractive and convenient to the masses. I think everyone's just having a knee-jerk reaction to the sudden change, mostly because the individual has less impact now and has to rely on the team even more to accomplish anything. This is supported by the fact that everyone thinks that the 4.x system can't be improved and just goes back to admiring how amazing 3.x was; although, I'm sure if we went back to the 3.x model, we would have just as many problems.

I honestly think 4.0's combat system update was a step in the right direction.


Side note: I don't understand the complaint for the combo button change? Sure, 1-1-1-5-6 is boring, but it's not like 1-2-3-5-6 is any better. It would just be less convenient. It's a good QoL change in my opinion.