The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

[WilhelmWhite]

Removing enrage timers will make this happen more often:

[Bobs]

Removing enrage timers will make this happen more often:

Honestly why is that a bad thing? Coming from behind is arguably more satisfying in the end than just perfect play start to finish.

Having the timer limits the amount of people willing to even try the "hard" content. Is that what this is about? A few people wanting to feel like they are better than everyone else? Play a MOBA if you want that, really. You get a rank of just how good you are after every match. No need to guess.

Part of the tool kit IS Raise by the way.

[Mavrias]

Honestly why is that a bad thing? Coming from behind is arguably more satisfying in the end than just perfect play start to finish.

Having the timer limits the amount of people willing to even try the "hard" content. Is that what this is about? A few people wanting to feel like they are better than everyone else? Play a MOBA if you want that, really. You get a rank of just how good you are after every match. No need to guess.

Part of the tool kit IS Raise by the way.

Because honestly if the party is dying that much they REALLY don't deserve the clear. There is meant to be a difference between the savage/extreme versions and the normal versions of encounters.

[WilhelmWhite]

snip

I certainly don't feel like I'm better than anyone, and I never intended to make that impression with posting the screenshot. Yes, Raise is part of the toolkit, but in that situation, it was being used as a crutch rather than being used in tight situations, and as little as possible. I'm certainly not trying to be rude, but I feel like saying "Raise is part of the toolkit" in your context is the same as saying "Oh, you're allergic to peanuts? Go ahead and eat that PB&J sandwich! You've got an Epi-Pen for a reason."

Because honestly if the party is dying that much they REALLY don't deserve the clear.

^^This. Our party was doing VERY poorly, and we should have wiped. I feel like the purpose of enrage timers is to instill a sense of urgency, where as if we didn't have them, people would haphazardly take on trials/raids, and not care about dying or DPS output. Such as the example in the screenshot I posted.

[MoroMurasaki]

Honestly why is that a bad thing? Coming from behind is arguably more satisfying in the end than just perfect play start to finish.

Having the timer limits the amount of people willing to even try the "hard" content. Is that what this is about? A few people wanting to feel like they are better than everyone else? Play a MOBA if you want that, really. You get a rank of just how good you are after every match. No need to guess.

Part of the tool kit IS Raise by the way.

Do you think everyone should be able to go into all content in parties of 6 healers and 2 tanks and clear through sheer persistance?

Would the encounter clock actually be the enrage timer then?

[Bobs]

Do you think everyone should be able to go into all content in parties of 6 healers and 2 tanks and clear through sheer persistance?

Would the encounter clock actually be the enrage timer then?

WELL, Like i said in other thread(s) TANKS and HEALERS should NOT be DPS. So that would solve your first hypothetical.
And yes, I think a 10min "perfect" fight is less interesting than a 60min "struggled" fight.

Currently the system is Pass/Fail. Without enrage timers is would be a Graded System, SSS, SS, S, A, B, C, D, F.

Sure some people would pass with a C but why is that SO bad? A SSS clear might give more gil or a mount chance drop, something as a reward. You are all just limiting yourselves because you choose to narrowly define success.

[Sebazy]

WELL, Like i said in other thread(s) TANKS and HEALERS should NOT be DPS.

The community has proven time and time again that they don't care about SE's 'opinion'. If we can get around something via some means that isn't properly enforced, we will.

Plenty of respectable entry level raid content in Everquest fell to my hand alone with most mid to high end content falling to my guild of 5, this was in an era when raids were tuned around 40 people and frequently involved more. I can promise that I'm speaking from experience here. You may well have some glamorous visions of an epic 60 minute struggle, but that's not how these things pan out. It's either a slow horrible grind or a frustrating zergfest where the only real pressure is on the raisers. Neither example makes for compelling nor rewarding encounters.

There's a reason why MMOs have shifted in the direction they have whilst those that have tried to emulate the core values of the old guard have invariably failed.

[WilhelmWhite]

Plenty of respectable entry level raid content in Everquest fell to my hand alone with most mid to high end content falling to my guild of 5, this was in an era when raids were tuned around 40 people and frequently involved more. I can promise that I'm speaking from experience here. You may well have some glamorous visions of an epic 60 minute struggle, but that's not how these things pan out. It's either a slow horrible grind or a frustrating zergfest where the only real pressure is on the raisers. Neither example makes for compelling nor rewarding encounters.

I couldn't agree more. Going through an encounter where DPS players aren't avoiding AOE and dying constantly, tanks aren't using the proper stances, and all while the healers are raising everyone multiple times? That's not rewarding at all. You don't get through that encounter and think, "Wow, we did it! That was awesome!". You think, "Thank God, it's over."

[TaleraRistain]

Plenty of respectable entry level raid content in Everquest fell to my hand alone with most mid to high end content falling to my guild of 5, this was in an era when raids were tuned around 40 people and frequently involved more. I can promise that I'm speaking from experience here. You may well have some glamorous visions of an epic 60 minute struggle, but that's not how these things pan out. It's either a slow horrible grind or a frustrating zergfest where the only real pressure is on the raisers.

40? Holy shit, when did they slash it that low? It was 72 in my time. And they weren't epic 60 minute struggles. We would raid for hours in a night, clearing trash to the boss for our chance to tackle it. They also weren't just zergfests, as bosses had random attacks and attacks that needed to be countered by specific roles. While I enjoy doing Extremes and 24 mans here, I felt raiding was a lot more rewarding there. Even if I was staring at the wall to avoid lag while timing my AoE mez spells with the other enchanters, I felt that my role was important.

[Sebazy]

40? Holy shit, when did they slash it that low? It was 72 in my time. And they weren't epic 60 minute struggles. We would raid for hours in a night, clearing trash to the boss for our chance to tackle it. They also weren't just zergfests, as bosses had random attacks and attacks that needed to be countered by specific roles.

I had 40 in my head, it's been a long long time so I guess my memory is deceiving me there (Raided from launch to early planes, my Magelo is 9093, rerolled from a barb to Iksar with Kunark's release) =(

And yeah, whilst raids were typically an entire evening's work (I used to reserve PoG by getting in there solo and just parking those two annoying adds with my VP snare spear), most bosses weren't. It was the trash and prep that bulked the time up.

It's also worth noting that as part of the mez team, you had one of the more varied and interesting roles within raids as different encounters would often require a completely fresh approach for you, be it charm tanking giants, mezzing snakes etc. Remember that a very significant portion of the raid didn't share your fortune. Mod rods are mod rods regardless of if you were in Naggy's lair or NTOV.

I really do think you're overthinking the complexity of these bosses, it was the surroundings that typically made the challenge, not the boss themselves. Boss damage was a weird thing until Planes came along with partials slows and I'm struggling to think of many bosses that truly did anything unique beyond a few gimmicks that didn't add up to much (Dane's teleport? Meh, Rak Ashir's fire aoe? Soloed).

Rose tinted glasses have a lot to answer for =(