The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

[Vaer]

"You haven't cleared XYZ, why do you think ABC? What assumptions/insight do YOU have to qualify your position on the topic?"

Vs.

"You haven't even cleared O4S. Get lost."

Disagree, anyone who over simplifies things (he basically said the entire game is missile command) and brings up min percentile logs as proof a class is OP is not going to get the benefit of the doubt from me. It would be different if he approached it in a different way but he was pretty much indirectly making fun of people and said that we're "defending non challenging content" by not wanting enrages removed. Maybe if he approached it in a different way people wouldn't be discounting him so readily. That's just me though. (I'm talking about Bobs).

[Miste]

"You haven't even cleared O4S. Get lost."
See above.

Excuse you, but I never told anyone to "get lost" so don't put words in my mouth. If you notice my post DID ask him a question: "how can you think that way?" and basically explained that from my point of view his stance makes no logical sense to me. So, that's interesting... didn't I do what you asked? He has simply not replied.

He said we are defending "non-challenging" content. His statement includes all of endgame IE Omega 1-4S and also Ultimate since they all have enrages. So he is including fights he has never experienced yet seems to think he can call them "easy", how would he know they are easy?

His other example about the minimum fflogs is just factually wrong so ain't no saving that one.

Look, I get it. Everyone has a right to an opinion even if said opinion is based on no actual experience. No one can stop you from having an opinion about something even if it makes little to no sense for you to have that opinion.

Thing is though naturally other people are going to call you out on opinions which have no base. Like if you told someone "I hate Sushi" and they are like "Well, have you tried any of it?" and if you answer "No, none." ...do you really think that person is going to take you seriously? Chances are they'll probably say something along the lines of "Well how can you hate something you haven't tried?"

Do you not understand this is normal behavior?

[HyoMinPark]

Ask Bobs why he thinks it isn't hard. Instead of discounting his argument on his perceived lack of experience, see if he can defend the statement and qualify it with evidence/insight. Being dismissive is not the correct way to approach.

To be fair, it’s not a perceived lack of experience; Bobs has said that he hasn’t done anything past V2S; since he hasn’t cleared Neo, it’s safe to assume that he’s never set foot into Ultimate. He also equated Savage fights to a game of “Asteroids” in another thread, yet has only seemed to do the two most easiest of the fights. Hence why everyone keeps saying things like “If it’s so easy, go clear Ultimate” and “You have no experience, so how can you speak on the difficulty/state of the content”.

I have no Rival Wings experience; that doesn’t give me any sort of perspective to judge or make comments about the current state of the content. By equivalent, Bobs has no experience in Ultimate Savage; that doesn’t give him any sort of perspective to judge or make comments about the state of it.

[Tridus]

Did you actually play Wildstar? I did. It was actually a pretty freaking solid game. Excellent mechanics and gameplay. Where WS failed IMO is not in its implementation, but in its marketing. I'd posit if Blizzard released it with their powerhouse it'd have been a success. Don't get me wrong it had a ton of issues, like all games, but I don't thinks it difficulty curve was one of them. It was actually one of the better implemented ones I'd seen in a long time.

Yup. At launch. Once they made it work on the ATI card I had at the time it was pretty great, right up until it wasn't. And that was where the problem was. The marketing was hardcore focused, and the endgame was extremely hardcore focused (aside from housing, which made XIV look like a sad joke). People got to a certain point, hit a brick wall of "oh hey, now you need to do the 20 person raid to get attuned to do the even more people raid", and bailed out en-masse.

Was a shame, really.

[Valknut]

I'm a fan of the idea, it would be cool if some fights in 8 man roulette were easier with 6 tanks and 4 healers or something crazy like that.

But that doesn't have to be a thing for every fight, its just something that could happen with out a enrage timer or DPS Wipe marker. A lot of old school mmo players didn't have enrage timers on anything they fought or player caps. A bit more freedom in a fight here and there could be cool, more world boss content would also be nice

[Tridus]

But that doesn't have to be a thing for every fight, its just something that could happen with out a enrage timer or DPS Wipe marker. A lot of old school mmo players didn't have enrage timers on anything they fought or player caps. A bit more freedom in a fight here and there could be cool, more world boss content would also be nice

A lot of old school MMO players also had hour long fights, graveyard zerg tactics, and many other things that we don't really want back. Enrages are a natural development to block those sorts of things.

[TaleraRistain]

I think the opposite should happen. They need to add DPS checks and hard enrages to more casual content, like the Alliance Raids, so that people are encouraged to perform well.

Sorry but there's nothing about zerg rushing that indicates the party can perform well. That's the problem with the design in this game. It puts dps output as king over everything with these ridiculous mechanics that encourage zerg rushing instead of requiring actual party cohesion and comprehension of role.

[TaleraRistain]

A lot of old school MMO players also had hour long fights, graveyard zerg tactics, and many other things that we don't really want back. Enrages are a natural development to block those sorts of things.

Enrages encourage zerg rushing. As an old school MMO player, I can tell you that fights didn't come down to zerg rushing because there were mechanics that didn't easily telegraph what was going to happen, so you had to have situational awareness, and all roles were important and necessary to beating the boss. I was *not* using my offensive spells as an enchanter back in EQ. I was using my crowd control abilities to keep the mobs from eating the healers. XIV's huge problem is that they're making roles outside of dps unnecessary.

[Tridus]

Enrages encourage zerg rushing.

Worth noting that I said graveyard zerg, which is a specific thing where pepole just constantly raise and come back from the graveyard (or get raised seven times in one attempt, as my cohealer on a Lakshmi normal did last week). Lack of enrages absolutely does enable that, because so long as you can keep enough people there to not reset the boss, people can die and get back into the fight all they want.

As an old school MMO player, I can tell you that fights didn't come down to zerg rushing because there were mechanics that didn't easily telegraph what was going to happen, so you had to have situational awareness, and all roles were important and necessary to beating the boss. I was *not* using my offensive spells as an enchanter back in EQ. I was using my crowd control abilities to keep the mobs from eating the healers. XIV's huge problem is that they're making roles outside of dps unnecessary.

Agreed, but that's a separate issue. It's all DPS, all the time in XIV because tank enmity generation and healing people back to full after damage don't require a monopoly on the time and resources of people in those roles (and CC basically has no reason to be used aside from Holy spam). Far from it. My not terribly good PLD can spend most time in Sword Oath and be at no real risk of dying or losing aggro. Given that, why wouldn't I? When Moro and I heal Rabanastre together, any of the bosses can do their big AoE attacks, and we've got our group back to full in one button press each (2.4 seconds). Then what?

Tanks and healers aren't DPSing as such a large part of their game play because of enrages. They're doing it because doing more tanking and more healing beyond what you need is redundant and what else are they supposed to do for half the fight?

[Darrcyphfeid]

Sorry but there's nothing about zerg rushing that indicates the party can perform well. That's the problem with the design in this game. It puts dps output as king over everything with these ridiculous mechanics that encourage zerg rushing instead of requiring actual party cohesion and comprehension of role.

I mean, you're not wrong. But within the context of the thread I'd rather there be more things in the game to encourage and teach the playerbase, and maybe ease them past the "faceroll" -> "Oh hey it's an EX Primal, I'll jump into this farm party completely blind because the rest of the game has been super easy" difficulty spike than to remove the ones we already have and just tapdance on our keyboards until we win. I know cross-world PF is a thing now and has restrictions in place to stop the latter example, but oh my lord did it happen so frequently in HW before that.

Outside of the context of the thread, we can't even get beyond housing issues and a stagnant gear treadmill to worry about mixing up the way combat design/approach works. I'd love to take the trinity system out back and bury it so we could get some super situational buffing/debuffing/support jobs, and change up how tanks and healers interact with enemies and each other, or have stuns and silences be more relevant, or whatever. But I've long since resigned to that never being a thing; every job must be able to do every piece of content in the game. Paired with the trinity system I'm not sure how much wiggle room they've given themselves.