The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

[akaneakki]

By removing enrage timers, you can let tanks tank, healers heal, and dps can dps. [\[/B]

Do you even know what you said there makes no sense? Let dps be dps if you remove enrage timer? DPS has a job in the game like the rest of them, tanking is keeping aggro, manage cds for busters and some AA, while that is completed you will work on the damage. Why do you need to do more aggro when it's already 30-40% ahead of everyone? Healer? Why heal when there is no damage coming? You should stop dps when healing is required. DPS? Should I explain? To kill things and prevent enrage. Doing what you said, again makes no sense and removing enrage will remove the thing dps is actually required to do. Removing enrage will lead to just healer and tanks, why not? Doing 1k dps on dps is what you can do without enrage.

Edit: We already let DPS, DPS, but some people just don't.

[Darrcyphfeid]

And as for the "if you're not doing the maximum dps/tanking/healing you're not really playing"... I'll use a FFXIV comeback - "you don't pay my sub".

Do the words reading comprehension mean anything to you?

Try reading what I wrote again, friend. 60~65% of maximum potential =/= maximum potential.

I didn't read most of what you wrote, I just skimmed and saw that. If you can kneejerk, then so can I.

[Dzian]

Zombie mode isn’t a method everyone can abuse since it will require a lot of time compared to burning down the boss since fatigue, nature’s call, real life obligations will be factored in the battle of attrition. So the faster you can complete the battle the less chance of causing a wipe due to human factors.

you can eliminate zombie mode strats just changing the way death works. make weakness a cumulative thing. first death weakness drops all your stats 20% second death 40% 3rd death 60% 4th death 80% or something like that. something like that would make zombie mode things impossible.

you could scrap enrages add more actual dps checks thtoughout the fight and still keep the difficulty up there..

nothing worse than boss going screw you at 2-3%..

[Kamatsu]

Raiding isnt meant for those kind of people, raiding EX/Savage requires time to learn your class(which isnt rocket science) and do mechanics while pushing out average dps at least to clear enrage, people whos mindset is "i dont have time to learn and work together with a group of 8" shouldnt be raiding, this isnt meant as an insult, but thats how raiding is, it requires effort(and not much) and some time, remember that you can clear that content anytime you want, you dont have to do it while its relavant, you can wait until you vastly overgear it.

Neither me nor the person I replied to was talking about RAIDS. He was talkign about upping the difficulty and including raid-like mechanics into normal DUNGEONS. He's was talking about making normal dungeons and casual play "harder" to try and 'encourage' players to play better - while all that would do is drive players away from the game.

Raiding is a completely different matter than making dungeons such as Cutter's cry harder, and it's something I agree should be hard. Raiding isn't for everyone, and raiding mechanics and difficulty should stay where they belong - in raids.

[HyoMinPark]

nothing worse than boss going screw you at 2-3%..

If you're hitting 2-3% enrage, one less death and you should clear. No need to remove enrage timers when the issue is something you can actively correct yourself.

[Darrcyphfeid]

Here's the thing a lot of people who push for harder content for everyone, or push's for EX/Savage mechanics be put into normal/casual content, seem to miss

I don't know who's pushing for that, but it's not me.

most people who play this game (and most other MMO's for that matter) are casual players who don't have the time or inclination to 'git gud' or 'learn to be better'. These people have 30-90 minutes a day/2-days/week to play and just want to log in and play without having to stress, worry about hard-to-play mechanics or such.

This is going to sound rude. Very, very rude. But it must be said:

IF YOU CAN ONLY PLAY FOR 3 HOURS A WEEK WHY IN THE NAME OF HOLY HELL ARE YOU PAYING A SUBSCRIPTION FOR A GODDAMN MMO?! You barely have time to watch a movie!

It's not the community's fault these people are trying to shove their fish into our peanut butter. Square should absolutely not be trying to cater to people like that, and if they do then the game will die. What Square should be doing - some of the things I've posted already - would also help poor, misguided people though. Gradual increases in difficulty to test that you're reasonably competent and can handle further trials is sort of the basic principal good of game design. Otherwise, you get to Final Steps of Faith and everyone just falls over dead during the loading screen.

These are people that will leave a game if their casual content becomes too hard for them to casually beat, they won't go to forums, reddit, guides, etc to try and learn how to play better, they won't seek FC's / LS's / etc to try and improve... they will just up and quit the game.

So your stance is that they can only play 3 hours a week if they're lucky, they don't have any desire to learn about the game whatsoever (even if Square put in some tutorials, gameplay or text-based), they don't have any desire to make friends, annnnd they just want to push the "win" button to either see the story or something. Is that correct?

I'm not sure those people exist. But if they do, **** those people and good riddance. Go watch a movie and be happy instead.

something about Guild Wars 2

This is incompetent game design. The market reacted accordingly. This isn't even remotely close to what I've suggested SE needs to do. And are already sort of doing badly, e.g. Final Steps of Faith and Royal Menagerie.

Am I saying all content in FFXIV should be made casual? NO! There does still need to be harder-than-normal content for players who like and want to play content.

And what about the middle? Are Square to just keep MSQ stuff so braindead that 2~3 players can carry the other 5~6, so that Royal Menagerie is exactly as hard as Cape Westwind, while also keeping the level of EX Primals and Savage content on a (mostly) upward trend?

Sounds like a bad idea to me. Especially if someone in the "casual" pool finds that they want to try getting into non-story stuff or, alternatively, someone in the "not casual" pool finds that their schedule doesn't currently work for getting to do EX Primals or Savage for a while and... literally everything else they can play while heavily sedated.

And they might not be playing to a min/max'ers standards, but they are still playing the game... they are playing to have fun, relaxe from their work/family/etc obligations and don't care about trying to maximize their classes potential.. as long as they can press buttons, do decently well, kill/heal/tank things and not die too much...then they are happy, havbing fun and will continue to play. Moment that stops, they'll move onto any number of other games that offer them easy casual fun.

I'm going to again assert that MMOs, themepark or otherwise, by their very nature are not friendly to the type of person you're trying to describe. And the people that I'm describing - that the endgame community constantly rails against - are definitely not pushing their buttons. When standard minimum competence is sitting around or a little above 3,000 and someone is barely managing 1,500 - ostensibly lower than auto-attacking and mass spamming a single offensive GCD button - there is something very, very wrong on a fundamental level.

Very few people actually expect/demand everyone to be perfect min-maxed tryhards. I don't think most would even be upset if people were doing rotations that weren't anywhere near optimal (provided they made some sort of logical sense and not Thunder III -> Thunder III -> Blizzard III -> Thunder III -> Fire III -> repeat) and were just actively engaged in the game. But a lot aren't, because the game doesn't expect them to and doesn't give them feedback that it's not okay because, well crud, these other people can just carry me.

I don't even understand how some of these people managed to clear their class quests and single-player instance MSQ battles.

One thing that maybe could be done with the older content - such as ARR & HW dungeons & trials - is look at the level and gear synch settings. Because right now even with the synch'ing, these are all pretty much cakewalks due to overgearing... and it's usually only mechanics which kill people or threaten wipes. Maybe SE could look at tinkering with that so players stats and such are synched at a slightly lower level than they currently are - this would encourage better playing, while still not making the fights so hard as to discourage casual players from doing the content. They would likely need to keep tinkering with the stats & such till an 'optimum' level is found... but it's something I'd like to see them do

This is essentially what I was advocating for.

Except even at minimally acceptable gear levels (per the dungeon/trial's ilvl restrictions) I still don't need a healer, or sometimes even DPS, to kill bosses like Chimera, Coincounter, Griffin and maybe a dozen or so others.

[Dzian]

If you're hitting 2-3% enrage, one less death and you should clear. No need to remove enrage timers when the issue is something you can actively correct yourself.

not always something you can correct yourself if your not the one making the mistakes. and sometimes its not even mistakes it's just people being a bit more cautious with mechanics.

I generally play with friends so i'm not the guy that's gonna boot one of them out because them out because they are able to mechanics perfectly just not fall a fraction short on dps... and generally when you see wipes at 2-3% despite the fact you've survived everything to that point. it's infuriating and generally puts players off wanting to try again....

if they scrapped enrages but had more dps checks the overall difficulty of content wouldn't change that much but it would just get rid of those wipes that screw you over when you've actually done nothing wrong...

[Selova]

most people who play this game are casual players who don't have the time or inclination to 'git gud' or 'learn to be better'. These people have 30-90 minutes a day/2-days/week to play and just want to log in and play without having to stress, worry about hard-to-play mechanics or such. These are people that will leave a game if their casual content becomes too hard for them to casually beat, they won't go to forums, reddit, guides, etc to try and learn how to play better, they won't seek FC's / LS's / etc to try and improve... they will just up and quit the game.

This is something I've wanted to address for a while because it seems people like to toss around a certain word, and not only that but, twist it to fit their personal narrative. The term "Casual" in MMO's, only refers to the amount of time you are able to put into the game, It has absolutely nothing to do with what you do with that time or how you go about using that time.


Generalizing all players who can't put a lot of time into the game as players who are unable to complete endgame content because of a lack of skill and/or interest has nothing to do with being a casual player, all that is is a bad player or just someone that isn't interested in that type of content and has no relevance on how much time they can or can't spend on the game. There are plenty of endgame raiders that complete challenging content that have just as much time, if not less than your average casual player.


This is why this "casual player" argument holds no weight as a debate tactic. People constantly twist the word according to what their narrative is, instead of actually knowing what the word even means. Being a casual player doesn't mean that you are unable to complete content or push your character to it's maximum potential, all that is is a player who either has no desire to complete it due to lack of interest or someone that isn't good enough, both scenarios have nothing to do with being a casual player. Please stop using this word incorrectly.

[Nhadaly]

Snip

Heres the thing tho, i see what ur trying to say, but people who have that casual "i only have x hours a week due to life" mindset also seep into raiding content which makes the quality of pick up groups in PF very low, so what im trying to advocate for right now, is for a well designed progressive difficulty curve in dungeon and trial content, if its well done then people will get better over time and will learn their class over time through playing the content while having fun instead of looking up guides on youtube or the balance discord which may look complicated to some, which will in turn, improve the quality of all PF groups overall, and those casual players that seep into raiding pfs wont be as bad, making the effort of trying to progress in pugs, or even trying to get weekly clears, less mind numbingly torturing.

[HyoMinPark]

not always something you can correct yourself if your not the one making the mistakes. and sometimes its not even mistakes it's just people being a bit more cautious with mechanics.

I generally play with friends so i'm not the guy that's gonna boot one of them out because them out because they are able to mechanics perfectly just not fall a fraction short on dps... and generally when you see wipes at 2-3% despite the fact you've survived everything to that point. it's infuriating and generally puts players off wanting to try again....

if they scrapped enrages but had more dps checks the overall difficulty of content wouldn't change that much but it would just get rid of those wipes that screw you over when you've actually done nothing wrong...

If a person really wants to clear, then they will work on correcting their mistakes to get their clear. You aren’t the one dying, but the healer is? Then that healer should work on rectifying their mistakes. Is the other tank dying to things? Then they should work on cleaning up their mistakes, too. It doesn’t matter if it’s not you personally; everyone should work to fix whatever went wrong.

Usually when you see enrage, it’s typically because there’s a lot of deaths, and people have damage penalties from Weakness/Brink of Death. Very rarely do you hit a 2% enrage due to low DPS not caused by multiple deaths. If that’s the case, work on your outgoing damage to make up that 2~3%: use foods, pots, a different opener, look into synergy with rBuffs if you run with jobs like NIN, DRG, BRD, MCH, etc.. Don’t ask for an easy way out.

If a person gives up after a 2~3% enrage, then maybe they don’t deserve the clear after all. Don’t look for an easy way out; push yourself and earn your clear rather than begging SE to remove enrage timers and make content easier so that you don’t have to try harder. I’m sorry if that sounds callous, but I’m tired of people just wanting things handed to them without trying to get better and earn what they want.

(Using the general “you” here, before there are any misconceptions.)