Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Dzian]

First. You're way off topic here. You transformed a "why people hate endgame?" into a "Why my hardcore raiding is gone?"

Nah I didn't. you might want to re read what I said.

I basically said some people hate endgame because they find it unapproachable / overwhelming because of the lack of a real difficulty curve.
players wanting to do endgame stuff are greeted by this massive increase in difficulty and it's quite simply overwhelming for many of them. they clear a normal mode and think there ready for the extreme / savage and they're a million miles away.

I also said if the game had a real difficulty curve that promoted player growth and improvement as they progressed through the game instead of what currently exists then it's likely more players might then might actually find end game fights to be more fun and approachable

and second you are wrong about the skill ceilling. You want challange?

Unnending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate)

Can you still say Yoshida is lowering the skill ceiling? Because there is no other content in the game harder than this.

I'm not wrong at all. Creator and omega were deliberately made easier in attempt to make them more accessible. the ceiling you need to reach in order to clear them is lower than it ever has been.
what they did was basically bring the content DOWN closer to the player. and not push the player UP closer to the content.

that is why the top players rofl stomped omega and creator because they quite literally smashed straight through the ceiling and kept on going up.

In a way ultimate doesn't count. Because ultimate is designed for the 1% of the 1% basically. by comparison making creator and omega easier and lowering the skill ceiling was done to try and close the skill gap and making raiding more accessible to the masses

[RiyahArp]

I'm not wrong at all. Creator and omega were deliberately made easier in attempt to make them more accessible. the ceiling you need to reach in order to clear them is lower than it ever has been.
what they did was basically bring the content DOWN closer to the player. and not push the player UP closer to the content.

What's not said here was they did this for RAIDERS, not casuals. That is, the raids and difficulty curve were so bad that even raiders who beat coil couldn't clear the raids in any real percentage. They tried relatively slow balancing attempts, and things like Thordan ex to help give little boosts, but they had to chuck it all out at the end because they made it too hard period. They found out really badly that the way the encounters are make an upper floor to how hard you can make it and not get 1% of the base to complete it.

It's not "make this so casuals can do it." The skill floor was high enough to make everyone struggle in their own niche save for the 1%. And te 1% even kind of burned out on ultimate; it took the same time as the hardest alex raids to down, despite the lower skill floor.

[HoodRat]

What's not said here was they did this for RAIDERS, not casuals. That is, the raids and difficulty curve were so bad that even raiders who beat coil couldn't clear the raids in any real percentage. They tried relatively slow balancing attempts, and things like Thordan ex to help give little boosts, but they had to chuck it all out at the end because they made it too hard period. They found out really badly that the way the encounters are make an upper floor to how hard you can make it and not get 1% of the base to complete it.

It's not "make this so casuals can do it." The skill floor was high enough to make everyone struggle in their own niche save for the 1%. And te 1% even kind of burned out on ultimate; it took the same time as the hardest alex raids to down, despite the lower skill floor.

I am now 90% sure everything you say is a lie.

[HyoMinPark]

I am now 90% sure everything you say is a lie.

Knowing Riyah, she is probably referencing her favorite tier (Gordias) to try and prove her point that raids were made easier because Gordias was too hard; and that Gordias was purposely designed to be purposely overtuned; and that raiders couldn’t rise to the challenge. Not that it was a testing mistake on behalf of the developers that they openly acknowledged and apologized for and fixed, or anything.

Or that many raiders have claimed Midas/Brute Justice was their favorite raid tier in terms of fights and balance, or anything.

[HoodRat]

Knowing Riyah, she is probably referencing her favorite tier (Gordias) to try and prove her point that raids were made easier because Gordias was too hard; and that Gordias was purposely designed to be purposely overtuned; and that raiders couldn’t rise to the challenge. Not that it was a testing mistake on behalf of the developers that they openly acknowledged and apologized for and fixed, or anything.

Or that many raiders have claimed Midas/Brute Justice was their favorite raid tier in terms of fights and balance, or anything.

I thought about that but the quote she was responding to specifically mentioned Creator and Omega.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[RiyahArp]

Or that many raiders have claimed Midas/Brute Justice was their favorite raid tier in terms of fights and balance, or anything.

But Midas was just as hard in effect, and didn't reverse the trend. Otherwise we wouldnt have seen creator at all. From what I understand, Midas was different, but replaced one style of difficulty with another. It's hard finding data, but this references the lucky bancho census around the time when people were doing it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._ffxiv_census/

It didn't really reverse the decline, but kept parity with it.

This is actually a pretty good blog from that time, too:

https://fashionninjutsu.com/2016/08/...-some-numbers/

I think people here are forgetting the past a bit. Midas was still too hard in the dev's eyes, and didn't really fix the problem of people not raiding or participating. It didn't really reverse the decline at all, you needed creator for that. They made creator primarily to help raiders; mostly the midcore, which were pretty vocal about how HW had no content for them on places like reddit and how they were stalled at points and unable to progress at all. Casuals in general didn't really raid at all, which is why they made story mode alex...casuals didn't even touch the coils, and missed out on the story.

[Inuk9]

In a way ultimate doesn't count. Because ultimate is designed for the 1% of the 1% basically. by comparison making creator and omega easier and lowering the skill ceiling was done to try and close the skill gap and making raiding more accessible to the masses

What? That doesn't make any sense. So if the content is harder it doesn't count. If the content is easier is to try to make the game more casual. You are clearly contradicting yourself.

If you you are facerolling omega savage just go to ultimate and get a real challange, lul. It doesn't matter if the content is made for 1%, I thought you wanna a challange, a raise on your skill ceiling. Well, you got it, have fun.

I have a feeling no matter the situation you'll never be satisfied.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

You are omitting the fact Cross-World Party Finder didn't yet exist, thus forcing people all onto one server if they wished to raid together. That alone likely contributed to the increased participation. Another factor is Midas still wasn't properly balanced as A6S outpaced A7S even following the initial nerf. Midcores weren't complaining about Midas, the more casual minded raiders were because they couldn't get the gear. Now I will admit, after the disaster of Gordias, they should have initially responded with Creator difficulty to ease everyone back into raiding then followed up with Midas level. Regardless, Creator had superior numbers yet they nerfed it again. And instead of properly scaling each tier as they claimed prior to Stormblood's launch, they want to leave Savage to potentially stagnate at its current level. That's the complaint most people have.

What? That doesn't make any sense. So if the content is harder it doesn't count. If the content is easier is to try to make the game more casual. You are clearly contradicting yourself.

That isn't a contradiction. It goes to show how poorly SE scales content. Deltascape is basically midcore whereas Ultimate is the hardest content this game has ever released. The gap between them is enormous. An equivalent would be suddenly putting Shinryu Extreme in Trial roulette. Asking for Savage to be closer to Midas difficulty doesn't mean everyone wants Ultimate.