What are the most common reasons people don't dps?

[miraidensetsu]

You are a unicorn. As in, I've never had a rdm help me with raises. Even when both healers are dead. You're saying healer should DPS because you're the lone RDM that raises and raises are a healer thing. I get that you're trying to make a point with this but it's not much of a point when 99.9% of the RDMs don't do the thing you're threatening not to do because it's not DPS. LOL.

To be fair, one of the (very) few times that a DPS helped me with healing was a RDM. But the norm is they almost never helps unless they are trully mentors (actual mentor, not some crowned noob), from your FC or your static. Not even with Addle on the boss.

And that's why I feel that all this discussion is all about healers covering bad DPS ass: no one is saying anything about how lessen the healer's work is everyone's job. For instance, no one does a topic on DPS forum wanting to know why they aren't using mitigation skills. On practice, if the party needs Addle to survive, it's a sure wipe.

And I don't see reciprocity on this insistent calling. There are no obligation from DPS players besides what their roles says to do. Just for healers/tanks. It's ok for DPS not waving mitigation. It's OK DPS not doing damage if he's doing some sort of rotation. No one posted some parse where the DPS was outDPSed by the healer just to point a finger at him. But healer not doing damage is a cancer that must have to be banned from the universe.

If it's not OK for healers not doing damage, it shouldn't be ok for DPS not using their party buffs. It shouldn't be OK for a caster not give some mana to healers when they're low MP. It shoudn't be OK for a RDM or a SMN to just turn a blind eye when someone dies because raise someone that's fallen is a healer duty. It shoudn't be ok for DPS almost never using diversion skills (tanks would apreciate that too). But it is OK. Not doing that is not a sign of a "lazy DPS", a "netflix DPS" or someone that no one wants to play with. That don't even mean that he's a bad DPS.

And that is to the extend that if a RDM raises someone, he feel entitled to some confetti. "Oh, I sacrified some of my precious deeps to help my party". Please, spare me.

And while this situation remains like that, the DPS queue will continue being too short. Yes, 30+ minutes is too short. It should be 60+ minutes long.

[Alisi]

And that is to the extend that if a RDM raises someone, he feel entitled to some confetti. "Oh, I sacrified some of my precious deeps to help my party". Please, spare me.

Yes. This is my problem exactly. It's not reciprocated in any way. DPS come here and complain about healers. Tanks comes here and complain about healers. Has there ever been a topic in the DPS forum about DPS who don't raise or heal? Is it so toxic over here? But we're to believe the root of all problems and all faults are laid at the feet of healers and when any other role throws us a bone, we're supposed to heap praise on them because apparently healing is the most easiest job there is and we're below everyone else' notice. Unless we don't DPS. And then they cry in every forum about how terrible and evil we all are.

The whole mentality that a RDM can post that in a discussion of this is just how terrible this whole thing has gotten. Can you imagine a healer posting their DPS here? What would everyone's reaction be? That's all you have to think about to know how uneven it is.

[Vyriah]

As for the rest of it, remember not to confuse the much-maligned "lazy healer" with new or inexperienced healers.

And what I'm telling you is that they barely exist and they will just camp their position even harder by you calling them lazy. You've been doing it non-stop for six month, for what result ? In the end everyone still comes back to anecdotical evidence (strange ones, is it even possible to run a roulette with an uncleared dungeon outside leveling ? I remember running every single 50 and 60 dungeon individually).
Even for more then novice, you could absolutly play all the game without having any feedback on what you're doing. And I'm pretty sure a lot of player don't check what every in the party does and don't care enough to say something unless players start talking for a reason or another.

Just calling bad/lazy healers polarize the issue. It' feels good because that makes you the good healer, but it doesn't solve the "problem" at all.

[Cynfael]

Just calling bad/lazy healers polarize the issue. It' feels good because that makes you the good healer, but it doesn't solve the "problem" at all.

You are again missing the point and mischaracterizing the discussion. Problem players generally don’t care enough even to read the forums, so none of this is for their benefit.

This discussion is about gameplay, not specifically about shaming players who are willfully bad. However, players who are interested in elevating their gameplay but who weren’t previously aware of how they could do so may find some value.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

snip

The stance you both are taking is hypocrisy at it's finest and you're just reflecting the "stigma" back at them - Which isn't even a stigma at all as far as I am concerned. The whole premise of the healer DPS debate is about effort. Not about "covering each other's asses". Unless you're claiming that it's fine to be either doing nothing (idle) or it's fine to spam that healing button even though no one needs healing (pointless effort). If it wasn't about effort then damage dealers can just spam that one damage button or that one particular part of their rotation.

DPS and Tank roles had their own share of flak as well concerning effort. So don't feel so victimized on that part: Flank monks, Ice mages, Tanks that stay in their tank stances, summoners using pets on sic, Bards that don't sing, and probably some more that I missed out on since the launch. There was even one instance of muscle mage* being mentioned on Reddit. But I'm pretty sure that's pure satire as a jab at those "bad dps ass". Unless you're fine with healers exerting no to little effort, then you should be fine with these too, right? They put in just as much effort. Or for a more measurable approach lets use GCDs: If you spend 100 GCDs healing and 200 GCDs idle, you wouldn't mind a DPS spending 200 GCDs idling either, right?

* This whole post on reddit was amazing, by the way. For those interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ages_were_bad/

edit:

You are again missing the point and mischaracterizing the discussion. Problem players generally don’t care enough even to read the forums, so none of this is for their benefit.

This discussion is about gameplay, not specifically about shaming players who are willfully bad. However, players who are interested in elevating their gameplay but who weren’t previously aware of how they could do so may find some value.

So I was talking about not putting in effort. I guess that's not limited to their role in these parts of the forum, right?

[Zojha]

Has there ever been a topic in the DPS forum about DPS who don't raise or heal?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...D-MAGES....%21

The fact you even ask the question, though, only shows that after over 700 pages worth of discussion, the reasons for why healer DPS is a thing still aren't well understood.

More healing than necessary is completely useless - More damage than necessary is still beneficial. That fact is all you need. And once you understand what it means, it'll become evident why the whole thing has nothing to do with covering for DPS and it'll answer some questions on why and when exactly DPS should assist healers or tanks in their duty and when not. I'm too jaded to bother going into more detail - It's been thousands of posts, what are the odds this one is gonna enlighten people?

[Jollyy5]

It's been thousands of posts, what are the odds this one is gonna enlighten people?

I can agree with that sentiment, but I just don't want to see the side who knows they are right lose to the side who only thinks they are right.

Unlike in other MMOs such as WoW in which damage can be unpredictable and a healer only really has enough time to heal, FFXIV healing is much less demanding, damage is predictable and mechanics very scripted which causes downtime for healers, which then should be filled with something beneficial, i.e. DPS.

That's just how healing is in FFXIV, the pure healer fantasy has no place here.

[Alisi]

snip

Hypocrisy? You don't even understand what we're talking about. We're not talking about "covering each other's asses" or even about whether a healer should DPS or not but rather this whole tone you and everyone else in this thread takes. This healer hate that's endemic. It's not the same for other roles. Not to this level. People openly talk shit about healers all the time. In FCs, on forums, etc. This is just one more example. Healers don't do enough. We must shame healers into doing more.

I can't wait until they take healer DPS out just to end the healer hate that people spread. It's coming. Man. They started this expac (why do you think SCH DPS was nerfed into the ground?) and I wouldn't be surprised if by the next one, it'll be zeroed out altogether.

The fact you even ask the question, though, only shows that after over 700 pages worth of discussion, the reasons for why healer DPS is a thing still aren't well understood.

Did you even read that thread or just pick the first one you came across? LOL. Yes. I'm sorrrrrrrrrry. You found one thread. Wow. That is really the same as having a running thread always up in the healer forum and sometimes elsewhere on this site.

[Jollyy5]

...

SCH and WHM can still put out some pretty respectable DPS numbers even on single targets with the right gear.

And have you even tried popping Cleric Stance -> DoTs -> Bane -> Miasma II -> Shadow Flare -> Miasma II spam in a dungeon on a big group of mobs until everything is dead? That BLM is crying some of the saltiest tears as you are whooping their buttocks in DPS.


I really doubt SE is going to make the healer DPS go away anytime soon, as it would also be stepping on many current healers' toes.

[Cynfael]

I'm too jaded to bother going into more detail - It's been thousands of posts, what are the odds this one is gonna enlighten people?

You might actually be surprised. I often think that way, too, but remember that this discussion is perpetually re-raised, usually by a newcomer with a question, comment, or anecdote. Most posters come across as very set in their ways, but I don’t think that describes everyone reading.