Survey: Community Opinions Regarding Parsing/Parsers in Final Fantasy XIV

[Vstarstruck]

Kaidea, I think she means that even if you pug, you probably pug at the highest difficulty levels where they filter out harassment because the pool of raiders that can play at that level is small anyways. You can't really evaluate the parser culture because the bulk of it is going to hit peoplein the middle reaches of skill, in the same way Overwatch pros and normal players have different cultures and player rankings. Generally world firsters you have to ignore in these discussions; they aren't the ones who are indicative of the general culture of the game.

THANK YOU!

I very strongly recommend you check out ACT to realign your perceptions. Not only is your analysis of threat and DPS completely incorrect, there are other factors that are significantly reducing your "merit" to make this statement.



I must be misunderstanding you somewhere. I don't "intentionally" keep away from parser harassment in WoW. I simply don't see it. I still PUG content frequently.



Read my post, and read yours. Which one of us sounds "emotional"? Where did I say anything about being in a crowd of "select few"?

The other major difference in our posts is that I am stating my opinion and providing examples to support my statements. You are stating yours as if it was fact. Which is not the case.

Another tidbit you had wrong is I have never once stated parser harassment does not occur EVER. That is ridiculous stance to take. I've always tried to direct your attention from the constant combination of the words "parser" and "harassment". They are 2 separate things.



Again, in what world did I ever say or imply I knew more than Yoshi personally? I've simply stated examples of why Yoshi's word isn't the hand of god.

Please, do me a favor. The next time you PERSONALLY see harassment stemming from a parser, copy and paste it, report it, and then post it here for all of us to see. This way I can keep track of it.

No you are trying to pass your limited experience as fact by calling everyone else having "anecdotal experience".
The only "anecdotal experience" is yours, your "anecdotal experience" is the minority.

So I am confused, in your old posts you seem to be trying to pass your experience as fact, and now you take back in saying "I have never once stated parser harassment does not occur" and also this is backstepping your discussion "I've always tried to direct your attention from the constant combination of the words "parser" and "harassment". They are 2 separate things."

I am not a 5 year old, you can talk about one's dps without a parser and without harassment. I am always been referring to harassment based on parsers, as in, something wouldn't happen if the person was not using them, like kick abuse, repeatably being vulgar, telling people to uninstall and die, making people feel bad because some healer or tank has more DPS then someone on DPS job, etc... You did not give support to anything other then proving my point, like the other poster tried to explain, it is from your limited range of people that you deal with, to make it seem parser harassment is at a minimum on wow. ON FFXIV the only reason you do not see it a lot is because most people know they will be easily hit by a GM when it is reported, and yet PEOPLE STILL DO IT, rarely, but the fact remains it still happens when it is a ToS violation, what do you think will happen if they allow public parers? GM calls be flooded with complaints. That is another reason they do not want to open Pandora's box, it is quite clear they do not get a lot of budget and a small GM team, they wouldn't be able to handle the volume of calls it would bring, on top of large skill gaps, you are just playing with fire, releasing a public parser in this game's state.

[HoodRat]

I figure if he really disliked it, he'd change it.

The way I see it is if the average tank/healer is unable to focus on doing dps now when the actual tank/healing requirements are low, how will they even be able to clear content when it's changed so that high end players can't sit in dps stance all day or let regens/fairy and ogcds do most of the healing?

[HyoMinPark]

No you are trying to pass your limited experience as fact by calling everyone else having "anecdotal experience".
The only "anecdotal experience" is yours, your "anecdotal experience" is the minority.

To be fair, everyone's experiences here are considered anecdotal. Everyone has their own personal experiences regarding parsers; personal equates to anecdotal. Unless the same experience is considered massive/the majority (and I'm talking 50% of the playerbase or more, so effectively ~450,000 personal accounts, since Lucky's last census had active characters near 900,000), they're all anecdotes. The good and the bad.

This is speaking strictly on FFXIV. I cannot speak for other games (WoW, Overwatch, etc.) because I don't play them.

[RiyahArp]

In most play though DRG don't need to even use elusive jump; they aren't like red mage or bard where it's not a dps loss to back dash out of an aoe, so you're better off sticking close. It's really just an issue in high end raiding play due to raiders being addicted to being in dps stance for virtually all of the fight and burst in openers. Enmity list isn't a bad way to rank DPS since generally they aren't using enmity down moves for that purpose. As red mage I don't need to hit my enmity down move unless I wipe or need to spam raise for example. BLM only needs to use it to cut enmity. It's a lot different in more casual content because you don't need to cheese the enmity line so much.

[Vstarstruck]

To be fair, everyone's experiences here are considered anecdotal. Everyone has their own personal experiences regarding parsers; personal equates to anecdotal. Unless the same experience is considered massive/the majority (and I'm talking 50% of the playerbase or more, so effectively ~450,000 personal accounts, since Lucky's last census had active characters near 900,000), they're all anecdotes. The good and the bad.

This is speaking strictly on FFXIV. I cannot speak for other games (WoW, Overwatch, etc.) because I don't play them.

yeah ik, but i think the other person is having issues seeing that, that was the point of my last post, well post before the one you quoted of me

[HyoMinPark]

Enmity list isn't a bad way to rank DPS since generally they aren't using enmity down moves for that purpose. As red mage I don't need to hit my enmity down move unless I wipe or need to spam raise for example. BLM only needs to use it to cut enmity. It's a lot different in more casual content because you don't need to cheese the enmity line so much.

Even in casual settings players should be making use of their enmity skills. If you are a geared DPS (330~340) matched against a tank with weaker (290~300, or even lower) gear, you should be using Lucid and Diversion to make things easier on the lesser-geared tank. Enmity is still not a good way to measure DPS. A lot of jobs have no enmity dump (MNK/SAM), but can still be doing less damage than another job with better gear even though their (the MNK/SAM) enmity is higher.

There are several jobs that I cannot play at any sort of good or optimized level, but I still watch my enmity and quell/dump as needed. It's just common courtesy....and the fact that I don't want things to turn around and smack me in the face.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

In most play though DRG don't need to even use elusive jump; they aren't like red mage or bard where it's not a dps loss to back dash out of an aoe, so you're better off sticking close. It's really just an issue in high end raiding play due to raiders being addicted to being in dps stance for virtually all of the fight and burst in openers. Enmity list isn't a bad way to rank DPS since generally they aren't using enmity down moves for that purpose. As red mage I don't need to hit my enmity down move unless I wipe or need to spam raise for example. BLM only needs to use it to cut enmity. It's a lot different in more casual content because you don't need to cheese the enmity line so much.

I'll be blunt. If you aren't needing to dump your aggro on Red Mage, it's because your damage is low. They have a huge spike in their openers, and will pull off even geared tanks without using Lucid/Diversion prior. Unless, of course, the tank sits in tank stance the whole fight. And if you think good tanks are going to do that against bosses? Well... don't be surprised if you get deleted by a cleave or buster. I will try and accommodate Monks and Samurai who use Diversion given there isn't an alternative for them yet. If a Red Mage pulls off me because they refused to hit Lucid, I'mma let you die.

[RiyahArp]

The tank is going to start in tank stance in most casual content, and build enmity enough before switching to DPS because they aren't going to have a NIN to dump aggro or another tank to shirk aggro on them in much content. Red mages opener isn't THAT much DPS, you have all of two OGCD that do sizable damage and 4 OGCD total. Then its just building damage through GCD. The problem is you don't stay in tank stance long at all and rely on more or less cheap tactics to overcome the lack of enmity that don't happen in much of the game, and you use comps that focus on stacking buffs that don't always happen in many party setups.

raiders really cheese a lot of things and think its skill when its not. If the boss ever decided to reflect debuffs, you'd all have no idea what to do.

[Oscura]

raiders really cheese a lot of things and think its skill when its not. If the boss ever decided to reflect debuffs, you'd all have no idea what to do.

If there was ever anything on the forums I read that was pig-headed, this is it.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Kaidea, I think she means that even if you pug, you probably pug at the highest difficulty levels where they filter out harassment because the pool of raiders that can play at that level is small anyways. You can't really evaluate the parser culture because the bulk of it is going to hit people in the middle reaches of skill, in the same way Overwatch pros and normal players have different cultures and player rankings. Generally world firsters you have to ignore in these discussions; they aren't the ones who are indicative of the general culture of the game.

Of course I can evaluate parser culture. I've been a better part of it in over a decade of MMO gaming across half a dozen MMO's with both hidden and public parsing.

I'm ALL for you and anyone else refuting my specific examples as to how I arrived at my conclusions. I welcome that as it's what generates healthy discussion, but I fail to see how my previous experience disqualifies my viewpoint on the topic.

I think you/Starstruck somehow missed my point. It could likely be fault for not being clear enough so let me restate it:

I like being able to pick and choose people of MY skill to play with. That doesn't mean I'm good or bad. It merely means I like playing with like minded players. People with the SAME goal. It means if I am a bad player, I like playing with other bad players. We can all struggle and overcome the obstacle together. If I am a decent player it means I can group with other decent players I can count on and learn with/from. If I am an elite player, I play with other elites so I can push the envelope of my respective job/environment.

I personally (see: personally means anecdotal, not me stating something as if it were fact) believe that is good design. It helps set expectations of each other. IMO FF14 does not accomplish this well by hiding feedback and sheltering poorly performing players, which again, IMO unmitigated parsing would fix.

If you disagree with this statement that is fine, cite your reasoning why.

If you say something like "parsers would cause toxicity to go up" then you missed my entire point. You'd be stating your opinion as fact. If you stated "I think parsers like that would cause toxicity to increase" you're still not providing any examples/insight to substantiate your point.

If we go by the following two assumptions:

Talking DPS numbers would be allowed.

Harassing someone over their DPS (Or indeed anything else) would still be an offence in the same way that it is now.

I actually think very little would change. Yes you'd get people discussing DPS in 8 man PF raid content but really now, where's the harm in that as long as it stays civil? If it doesn't? Report it, it's one less cretin that we all have to deal with.

As far as more casual content goes? Again, don't like it? There's a vote kick for that. We have the tools to police ourselves to a fair degree, and contrary to what these threads suggest, it's not only the pro parse crowd that can use them.

Bingo. This 100%.

No you are trying to pass your limited experience as fact by calling everyone else having "anecdotal experience".
The only "anecdotal experience" is yours, your "anecdotal experience" is the minority.

1) You stated my anecdotal experience as "limited". This is you stating your opinion as fact again. How do you know what my experience is? Mind you in a previous response I've detailed my experience. How that qualifies as 'limited' I suppose I'll never know. Maybe I can apply for a job with 10years of experience, and I'll just put on my resume, limited experience in database design, marketing, blah blah.

2) You then proceed with a statement saying that my experience is the minority. Again, you are stating your opinion as a fact. What dataset have you seen that demonstrates that my viewpoint is the minority.

You are not providing any insight nor examples to substantiate your statement.

So I am confused, in your old posts you seem to be trying to pass your experience as fact, and now you take back in saying "I have never once stated parser harassment does not occur" and also this is backstepping your discussion "I've always tried to direct your attention from the constant combination of the words "parser" and "harassment". They are 2 separate things."

You misunderstand. I am not attempting to pass my experiences off as facts. If you have an example, please cite it so I can correct it/clarify. You will very frequently see in my responses the words "personally", "IMO", "think", and other such words that demonstrate that I am stating something as my opinion, and I almost always substantiate my opinion with an example/insight and derive where it came from AND that is always up for challenge/discussion. That's the difference. That's why when people make a statement without providing WHY, it leaves the only conclusion as someone is presenting as fact, which does little to stimulate actual discussion.

I'm not taking anything back either. I am merely clarifying. In any of these half a dozen parser threads I never state with absolution that parser harassment doesn't occur. I merely state that it is less common and I cited my examples as to WHY I believe that to be the case.

In all things, I always welcome people to try and get me to see their side. I have been convinced before. I have issued apologies, and I have learned things I did not know before because I am always open to discussion.

You did not give support to anything other then proving my point, like the other poster tried to explain, it is from your limited range of people that you deal with, to make it seem parser harassment is at a minimum on wow.

Limited range? I did leveling dungeons, heroic dungeons, normal mode raids, heroic raids, and EVEN pugged mythic bosses. I did world quests, world bosses, and Mythic +, all just like everyone else. Just using the most recent expansion, Legion. I can count on hand the # of times I saw someone was harassed in chat for parsers. 0 times. The last time I saw actual parser harassment was in WotLK, nearly 7 years ago.

The only thing I didn't do was LFR because there is no reason for me too. Are you implying that LFR is > EVERY other content form combined? That'd be a very questionable stance to take IMO.

Me saying this doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It means that in my experience it's significantly less common than forums suggest, which is to be expected given that forums are occasionally used as a means to troubleshoot/vent.

ON FFXIV the only reason you do not see it a lot is because most people know they will be easily hit by a GM when it is reported, and yet PEOPLE STILL DO IT, rarely, but the fact remains it still happens when it is a ToS violation, what do you think will happen if they allow public parers? GM calls be flooded with complaints. That is another reason they do not want to open Pandora's box, it is quite clear they do not get a lot of budget and a small GM team, they wouldn't be able to handle the volume of calls it would bring, on top of large skill gaps, you are just playing with fire, releasing a public parser in this game's state.

You're repeating these "small budget" and "small GM team" statements again. You even state "it is quite clear". Would you mind clarifying this? I gave an example and some insight the last time I challenged this and you ignored it, but here you are stating it again.

How do you know they have a small budget or not a lot of GMs?

To be fair, everyone's experiences here are considered anecdotal. Everyone has their own personal experiences regarding parsers; personal equates to anecdotal. Unless the same experience is considered massive/the majority (and I'm talking 50% of the playerbase or more, so effectively ~450,000 personal accounts, since Lucky's last census had active characters near 900,000), they're all anecdotes. The good and the bad.

This is speaking strictly on FFXIV. I cannot speak for other games (WoW, Overwatch, etc.) because I don't play them.

Nothing wrong with anecdotes. It helps give context and understanding.

Saying "parsers create more toxicitity" vs. saying "I think parsers create more toxicity, because xyz". One of these opens up discussion and lends credence to the poster, the other one IMO tends to be inflammatory because it comes off as stated as fact with absolutely no insight/evidence to substantiate it.

I could stand to learn to sugarcoat a little bit better like you, but that's not who I am. I like to challenge people to shake their views and expectations, and I always encourage others to do the same. it's how I make slow work days go by