SE: if it aint broke, dont fix it (War)

[Mycow8me]

I think the problem is the fact that I play both war and dark and can see the clear inefficiency that DRK has in comparison but that's just my opinion. Inefficiency aside, my comment was't directed at you... It was more or less directed at the devs with sarcasm.

Personally I tried finding usability problems on war but I just can't find any other than lots of skills being locked and changing behind the two stances that can create confusion for new players? Either way I'm more worried the changes will be negative since warrior is in a good spot right now. The sarcasm was that they don't consider speed bonus creating usability problems for instant skills or even forced doubleweave an issue for a class which is for the most part obvious.

[Lyth]

...

It's not about fairness. It's not even about buffs and job balance.

It's silly for someone to complain about hostility directed towards WAR players when they've just made a post dismissing the other two tanks as being "faceroll easy" mere minutes before. This is just common sense.

I don't think this was done out of genuine maliciousness, though. Just a lack of knowledge. Dunning-Kruger effect and all that.

My post was just information. The frustration with terms like "superior design" and "braindead easy" is not new. Nor do you have to search particularly hard either here or on reddit to find them.

I think that players who don't want this sort of a reputation to stick naturally distance themselves from this sort of behaviour. If you feel that it's just the "vocal minority", then don't contribute to it.

[Aana]

Besides I think we all know what the real issue is here. Lalas...

Taru. Lala. Their evil cannot be hidden no matter what name they choose to wear.

[TouchandFeel]

Taru. Lala. Their evil cannot be hidden no matter what name they choose to wear.

I don't think they are trying to hide it at all or at least are hiding it in plain sight.

Lalafell

fell
adjective
Definition of fell
1 a : fierce, cruel, terrible
b : sinister, malevolent a fell purpose
c : very destructive : deadly a fell disease

It is there for all to see.

[Aana]

It's not about fairness. It's not even about buffs and job balance.

It's silly for someone to complain about hostility directed towards WAR players when they've just made a post dismissing the other two tanks as being "faceroll easy" mere minutes before. This is just common sense.

I don't think this was done out of genuine maliciousness, though. Just a lack of knowledge. Dunning-Kruger effect and all that.

My post was just information. The frustration with terms like "superior design" and "braindead easy" is not new. Nor do you have to search particularly hard either here or on reddit to find them.

I think that players who don't want this sort of a reputation to stick naturally distance themselves from this sort of behaviour. If you feel that it's just the "vocal minority", then don't contribute to it.

And in 3.x pld was the 'braindead easy and UP' class that was weak and you see the same regurgitated junk as you do about 'braindead ez UP Drk' now. In 2.0 Pld was "Braindead EZ and OP" and war was the 'skillful UP' job. 2.1 it was the 'skillfull OP' job. Or any of the variations in between.

It doesn't matter which job is (temporarily) on the top or bottom. Its the same forum biting at itself. Either you play the UP class of the month and are the true victim as everyone holds you down (bonus points if you also claim to be the hardest to play), or youre the OP job and the salty UP job jumps down your throat every time you say anything besides 'nerf me plz'.

In reality, most people who tank:
A: Play multiple tanks so the broad strokes of 'Wars vs Drks vs Plds' is already shoddy
B: Don't read this forum.
C: Don't even know what the meta is or whats 'OP'. I cant count how many times a new face posts here, asks in town, or asks me personally 'which tank should I play' because they don't know jack about any of it. If they read a single thread on the front page theres a 90% chance they already know drk is the 'worst' tank. Yet most people don't 'know' that.

Hell, one of my own raid members Ive been playing with on voip for nearly a decade together since FFXI, beaten everything from Twin to NeoEx, stays on top of patches and updates asked me 'which tank is good now?' just Monday night as they are considering tanking in 4.2 with my war. They were planning on drk because they thought it was better than pld. These aren't newbies that started yesterday. My group makes fun of me when I occasionally babble about nuanced tank stuff. They give no Fs.

The average player gives no Fs about the meta, or this forum, or that drk is 5% lower DPS than pld. 'War players all do this' Drks players all do that etc is utterly silly. Its a forum bubble for the few hundred regular posters that care enough to log in here and post crap. Like you, like me. We are the 1%. Drawing conclusions from the tank forums about the general playerbase of a job is just not an accurate assessment.

[Lumadurin]

The only real change I can see for usability that wouldn't (completely) destroy the job through homogenization (i.e., a potency rebalance so the job isn't as heavily weighted towards its burst windows) is just making it so that Unchained also applies the beast gauge cost-halving effect.

This would shrink the gap between fledgling, learning (a specific fight), or just plain bad tanks who don't like stance dancing, and more experienced/comfortable tanks, by allowing them to do both their burst windows no matter the stance. Much like how PLD can still do Holy Spirit when in Shield Oath, or how DRK can still do their Dark Arts weaving with Grit up.
Then as they learn and become more comfortable with main tanking, they can start stance dancing more gradually instead of the "all or nothing" WAR is now with its stances.

It would also pretty much fix the issue of Unchained being a 100% worthless skill currently (then it'd just be a partially worthless - or maybe actually useful skill if a WAR ever had to MT in a fight with constant heavy tank damage).

[Jollyy5]

snip

I dunno, a WAR with access to 6 Inner Beasts or Steel Cyclone in a row would just be ridiculous and would hardly even need a healer at that point.

[BluexBird]

6 Steel Cyclone in a row would make them broken for dungeon compared to the other tanks. I mean, sure... it'd just be for dungeons, but lol...

Just take Unchained have a separate cooldown from Inner Release. "OMG BUT BUT THEN WARRIOR PULL WILL BE TOO STRONK!" No it won't. People will still turn on Deliverance as soon as they get an Equilibrium off, simply because delaying your Inner Release will still be a DPS loss. A change like this would just make Unchained usable again at level 70.

[Satarn]

Just take Unchained have a separate cooldown from Inner Release. "OMG BUT BUT THEN WARRIOR PULL WILL BE TOO STRONK!" No it won't. People will still turn on Deliverance as soon as they get an Equilibrium off, simply because delaying your Inner Release will still be a DPS loss. A change like this would just make Unchained usable again at level 70.

While separating Unchained cd from Inner Release would be a fun change, pretending it would be just a QoL tweak rather than a buff is pretty short sighted.

It's not about the pulls but overall increase in survivability, threat(not that it matters but still) and damage. Yeah, you're still gonna swap to Deliverance asap for your IR burst but then what? You'll go straight back to Defiance for as long as you can keep Unchained up. We no longer use Fell Cleave much outside of zerk, Unchained doesn't cost us wrath anymore and on top of that, we're now spending gauge on a skill that actually increases in dmg while we're in Defiance(Upheaval). If you need to pop a Fell Cleave outside the burst windows because you're capping BG, you can just quickly switch to Deliverance for 10 seconds without wasting a gcd. Maybe you've just cut some of that Unchained timer, but who cares - it was free.

It would definitely be an interesting gameplay change and would encourage actual stance dancing, but it would be a significant buff as well. Buff which probably wouldn't be a good idea with current tank balance.

[Jollyy5]

...

I don't think I would bother switching back to Defiance unless I REALLY need to, since Unchained only lasts for 20 seconds, and even then I would be missing out on 5% damage dealt.

Not to mention I'd also be missing on Deliverance's crit increase.