An Alternative? to parsers..

[akaneakki]

Do you really think that the devs would leave the rotations and gameplay just as it is right now if they introduced a parser? Really? I mean, really?

Gonna ask you a question before I'll tell you why, well 2 actually. 1: Is AoE hard to perform in a dungeon? 2: If 1 person does 8k and 1 does 1k, the person doing 1k was mostlikely afk, so why are they afk in a dungeon?

[Erik501]

Gonna ask you a question before I'll tell you why, well 2 actually. 1: Is AoE hard to perform in a dungeon? 2: If 1 person does 8k and 1 does 1k, the person doing 1k was mostlikely afk, so why are they afk in a dungeon?

First question: I find it extremely easy on PLD, DRK, WAR and SAM. On the other jobs I can't tell since I don't have them at a level high enough to know. Second question (sort of xD): that guy/girl was not afk. Simply clueless, probably a case of somebody who has never played an mmo and nobody has ever tried to help them. Do you want to know what I did? This:

8k + 1k + 2k + 2k = 13k total -> I can pull wall to wall. And wall to wall I pulled, with some silly jokes along the way as I usually do. It was nice, smooth, fast and fun. No drama whatsoever.

[akaneakki]

No drama whatsoever.

First of all, I rarely see sam's out there doing aoe, so funny you mention that. RDM; scatter, why the hell would you jolt pack of 10 adds? MNK? Simple, instead of demolish and snap punch you do rockbreaker, drg? Doom spike into sonic thrust? BLM?Certainly not freeze, so explain to me why is it a hard thing to look on your tool tip, you know.... after 60-70 levels? Also what are those numbers? Is that the dps, tank healer and dps or tank, healer dps dps? I don't follow? Either way, on a mob of mob where someone did 8k, certainly 2k was single target, so yeah, wow, aoe is certainly a hard ask. Can we please stop pretend that people don't have fingers and hands anymore? They dumbed down the rotations in SB and it feels like it didn't do anything because people can't read tool tips. Yeah must be hard to hit flare when you are almost out of MP, or foul when you can? Why the hell would a BLM freeze in a first place. So again, lets stop pretend people dont have fingers and hands anymore, because that's pretty much going on..

And to reply to what you said earlier: Yes they can still add a parser with the current rotation, because... dum dum dum there is only 1-2 buttons to click to do aoe, so yeah they can. Again, stop pretend people don't have fingers and hands.

[KaldeaSahaline]

The game is losing its playerbase for a reason, balancing and designing entire game around numbers and dps, this does not work well for the game. Instead of refreshing game mechanics and graphics, it boils in its own sauce in prior to cater the minority of the playerbase who use combat meters. And so, that minority is what they had left from being very first successful game to the king of the dying game genre.

Snip, etc.

Honestly I was going to respond to every single flat out inaccurate or misguided statement you made refuting your asinine statements, but I must admit you're quite possible one of the best trolls I've seen in a while. You win man, well played. Keep on keepin on. You may fool those other posters, but you're not fooling me. No self respecting intellectual would ACTUALLY believe the drivel that you're writing, especially with how laughably hypocritical you'd have to be to say those things without even realizing that FF14 has the EXACT same issues.

10/10 dude.

No, some of us come from games in which in-game parsers were commonplace and had to endure so much needless drama because of them. I'd rather not go back to the days when someone would get called out for doing crap dps even when their gear obviously prevents them from doing more. I have always healed so I was rarely part of it but watching it was enough to develop a strong distaste for in-game parsers.

I don't even want to think about how 24 mans would be if everyone had a parser. There's enough QQ in there as it is.

Parsers are very useful tools but the sad truth is they're often used as a platform for players to feel justified in being awful to others. They're too easily abused.

If gear was truly the distinction as you say, why is it that my i297 PLD in full time tank stance can out DPS i330+ tanks. Why is it that my brother's ilvl 305 SAM did more damage than an entire party of roughly i320-325 players, by OVER double the second highest person in the group.

Gear matters for sure, but let's not be naive here and pretend that the average player is either mindbogglingly ignorant of MMO fundamentals, or lazy. Neither are excuses in a cooperative team game.

+ Option three represents the highest amount of effort in developing and implementing an in-game parser, but once that's complete the "effort input" remains the same as option two, in that SE simply puts passive effort into policing problem players. Another disadvantage is that those who are defined as "poor performers" might become discouraged and quit the game.

Just my two cents.

You forgot one POSSIBLE benefit. Poor performers will be held accountable and have a desire to improve their play so they're not excluded. You cannot say one way or the other which way it would lean. There simply is no data that exists to support either argument.

I agree with part of what you were saying. Somewhat. I've said my piece about how I feel about the general, casual player base, however, I don't like the trend coming from some of the arguments of parsers being used for performance purposes outside of Ex/Savage/Ultimate. There literally is no reason to parse outside of that content, and even then, it really should be used for farm/parse parties. I imagine with a lot of us, we spend a bit of time on progression - me personally, it was O3S where I really felt progression. Parsing would be nice, but it shouldn't really come into play as being a recommended tool until after you clear. Numbers don't mean nothing if you can't clear a fight.

There is a reason to parse in every type of content. That is to hold people accountable.

That is "wow so and so you did really well" or "man, I am awful, these people are crushing me and I am dead weight, what can I do to fix this?"

and before ANYONE says blah blah someone will say something mean, you ******* report them and move on. The SAME way you would now.

Last bit: Your suggestion does very little to help the difficulty curve that the game struggles with.

However a parser would make these differences obvious to everyone and this would lead to tensions among the playerbase.

Mind citing your data that helped you arrive at that conclusion? Not anecdotal or feelings, actual hard data that supports your point. If you do not have it PLEASE refrain from stating it as a fact. Make sure you specify it is your opinion.

There is already a STAGGERING amount of tension in the playerbase.

It's because people aren't held accountable. That awful DPS doesn't know he is awful because he keeps getting participation trophies so he doesn't understand why people are upset with him. He doesn't have the data so how could they? They must be making it up I'm not that bad he thinks. Yet he keeps getting kicked from parties or talked down too and gets frustrated. He comes on the forums and says I hate parsers and people using them they're elitists.

Never the while accepting the blame HIMSELF for their own inadequacies. That is why I BELIEVE the community is so divisive. You have people making excuses for their performance, people who don't even know (and we've seen countless examples of people saying they tried ACT and were blew away how bad they were in just these few threads alone).

I don't even think its about needing a parser. Its really about being able to kick when using one. If SE just said "we wont ban based on complaints about dps" watch the parser talk dry up instantly. because most people probably wouldn't even use the official parser if they made one

Cross post I made in another thread. I believe I can say this on behalf of "most" Pro parser people.

We want accountability. That's what so many anti-parser people like you misunderstand. We don't want to roast you over your performance. We want you to see it with your own eyes so we don't have too. We'd love to help you get better or clear content because there's no more hidden expectations/blame. The fact that it is all hidden right now is why there is such a strong divide in the community. It's why there is so much resentment between skilled and ignorant players. IMO of course.

It's the same reason why I find learning parties to be some of the best experiences in the communities. That's because there's no hidden expectations. Everyone is there for the same reason. Whereas clear/farm parties you see hidden agendas, people wanting carries, performance discrepancies, etc.

If you have to use a third party program to get accurate feedback on how you are doing, let alone play the job "correctly" enough to beat raiding content, the game has failed in its design. The whole DPS check thing is crappy game design too, there just to put an artificial, obscured time limit to prevent instances from being overbooked and to punish zombying. As for doing less than a tank, I could tell with no parser, because generally if you try and do less, you are dead incredibly often. You don't do that much less if you try and understand the mechanics. For savage I only started doing it in SB out of sheer boredom, and had O1s and Susano ex clears as healer. I don't bother farming it, because healing neither is like pulling teeth compared to dps and tanking.

DPS checks are a necessary and healthy mechanic. It's up to their implementation to determine if they're well designed or not.

That said, I do agree with you. This game has an AWFUL feedback design. You're given very little feedback about your performance and you're not taught the basics, let alone the intermediate aspects of your job or the game. That is one key area FF14 has failed and very likely contributes to the playerbase skill issue.

Do you really think that the devs would leave the rotations and gameplay just as it is right now if they introduced a parser? Really? I mean, really?

I want you all to see the whole picture here guys. I have seen in a dungeon two dps with the same job: one was over 8k and the other was roughly at 1k. Both of them in about the same gear. Now, do you really really think that the devs would leave the rotations and gameplay just as it is right now if they introduce a parser?

I know I would not. For sure. That would make the game lose so many subscriptions that I might as well close the business and go home. Please, try to see the full picture. Otherwise it is only wishful thinking.

What data do you have that supports your belief that because of a parser they'd need to change the skill floor? How do you know it would cause a mass exodus of subscriptions?

Again please cite reliable data for analysis, otherwise PLEASE stop stating your opinion as if it was a fact.

First question: I find it extremely easy on PLD, DRK, WAR and SAM. On the other jobs I can't tell since I don't have them at a level high enough to know. Second question (sort of xD): that guy/girl was not afk. Simply clueless, probably a case of somebody who has never played an mmo and nobody has ever tried to help them. Do you want to know what I did? This:

8k + 1k + 2k + 2k = 13k total -> I can pull wall to wall. And wall to wall I pulled, with some silly jokes along the way as I usually do. It was nice, smooth, fast and fun. No drama whatsoever.

Of course it's easy, it's one freaking button for half of those jobs. That's not even extremely easy, that's quite literally mindless.

And of course it was a smooth and fast run, you had 2 people operating at 95%+ percentile as far as dungeons go in content tuned for the 4th percentile. 8k and 2k (healer) is on the extremely high end of DPS (WHM can go higher, not sure what job healer was in your case).

FWIW, I can solo almost every single dungeon boss in SB. I do not need another damage dealer or a healer. That's how trivial these are.

[Penthea]

If gear was truly the distinction as you say, why is it that my i297 PLD in full time tank stance can out DPS i330+ tanks. Why is it that my brother's ilvl 305 SAM did more damage than an entire party of roughly i320-325 players, by OVER double the second highest person in the group.

Great, bad and everything in between is always going to be in every mmo because every human is different. That is why this happens. Just because you can do something doesn't mean everyone else is in a position to or even wants to.

And no it's not due to the absence of parsers. I met plenty of bad players in WoW who had parsers. They didn't feel magically inspired to do their best, they just did the bare minimum that gave them a quiet life. Which sometimes wasn't enough in top tier content, and obviously it caused problems.

There is no mystical cure-all when it comes to lazy or bad players. They will always be around no matter how sophisticated and freely available parsing becomes. WoW is a prime example of this fact.

Gear matters for sure, but let's not be naive here and pretend that the average player is either mindbogglingly ignorant of MMO fundamentals, or lazy.

Well no, they're not. Average players play just fine. I mean, this is why they're called average. Not amazing but certainly acceptable.

[Nedkel]

Honestly I was going to respond to every single flat out inaccurate or misguided statement you made refuting your asinine statements, but I must admit you're quite possible one of the best trolls I've seen in a while. You win man, well played. Keep on keepin on. You may fool those other posters, but you're not fooling me. No self respecting intellectual would ACTUALLY believe the drivel that you're writing, especially with how laughably hypocritical you'd have to be to say those things without even realizing that FF14 has the EXACT same issues.

10/10 dude.

Lemme ask you a question, why do we need the parser for?
The only 2 reasons i know is:
- "because i want to improve to the very last inch" and thats completely fine
- Because noob team in duty finder in PVE and i seek for excuses why i lose time with randoms.

The second one is absurd as it sounds, you do not expect from bunch of randoms any level of the play, if you are queuing up for solo activity whatever game you play you have to expect the worst. That or search for some guild/free company that plays nicely and together.
Doesnt matter if it is ESO, blade and soul, wow or FF xiv, random dps players contains everyone, from someone playing on a microwave with 5 fps to someone that plays like a dota playing AI doing no mistakes at all.
The only thing not fair it that, dps is much easier role comparing to the tanks or healers, and i believe they should be rewarded greater for the harder job, not making dps harder because thats practially impossible without backlash.

[Erik501]

There is a reason to parse in every type of content. That is to hold people accountable.

In duty finder? Accountable for what? It is a freaking game, you. Why are some people so obsessed with that? Don't you like how bad most of us poor mortals play in the duty finder? Good for you. Party finder is your tool. Use it, enjoy itl, and leave us poor mortals alone. See how easy it is?

Mind citing your data that helped you arrive at that conclusion? Not anecdotal or feelings, actual hard data that supports your point. If you do not have it PLEASE refrain from stating it as a fact. Make sure you specify it is your opinion.

No data to cite, just an educated guess from my experience, not only in video games but in life as well. Did I fail to state that I was sharing my opinion in a forum where all everybody do is share their personal opinions as well? (sorry, to do this, but I have to include you as well in this group with the rest of us poor mortals, I hope that you don't mind it) Ooops, my bad then. Yes, I am only sharing my personal opinion, just like you. Happy now?

There is already a STAGGERING amount of tension in the playerbase.

Reading through your post, I wonder how that is possible (insert canned laughter here). I guess with a parser the tensions would dissapear all of the sudden, everybody would be in the stupid 95 percentile (even though it is absolutely impossible), nobody would ever have to mention the word wipe, the "tales from the duty finder" thread woould be buried behind pages and pages of posts of people congratulating each other for how good every player does thanks to the parser, there would be rivers of milk and honey...

I guess you get the point, don't you?

I was going to continue but I am tired, it's been a hard week at work (like, I mean, real work, you know? Not the game, no, just the real work you do to, you know? earn money so you can buy food and stuff like, I don't know, pay a subscription to a game to rest an disconnect from the tensions of the real life... that kind of stuff). But I will summarize with your last sentence:

FWIW, I can solo almost every single dungeon boss in SB. I do not need another damage dealer or a healer. That's how trivial these are.

That's the whole point, thank you. Like, really, thank you very much. Why the hell would anybody need a parser so desperately for such a trivial content.

[akaneakki]

In duty finder? Accountable for what? It is a freaking game, you..

Yeah thanks for spamming blizzard and not doing foul or fire aoe on trash. Thanks to the rdm doing jolt on 10 packs of mob when jolt doesn't aoe. Thanks for playing like you were afk, thanks for slowing the run because someone who just got back from work wanted to do the previous day expert roulette before reset. Thank you for not trying. Thank you for making it fun for yourself and not everyone else in the group. Thank you for playing this game like it was a solo game and no people are around you.

See how easy it is?

To click on scatter as rdm? Foul/flare/fire 2 as blm? Rockbuster instead of snap punch or demolish as MNK? 2 buttons instead of 4 on DRG for aoe? SMN clicking bane? SCH bane? Whm doing 2 holy on a big pack for mitigation to stun the mobs. Darn these gods demanding those button clicks, because we mortals have no fingers to click on them.

No data to cite, just an educated guess from my experience, not only in video games but in life as well. .

Since you experience in the games, show us some proof then.

I
That's the whole point, thank you. Like, really, thank you very much. Why the hell would anybody need a parser so desperately for such a trivial content.

The whole point also was that the content is so damn easy, you need to only click 1-2 buttons to aoe in dungeons, but again, dark those gods for demanding such a hard task to click aoe buttons. I do agree you don't need to play like a super good player in dungeon, but clicking 2 buttons doesn't require you to be super good, it just looks like it because so many people simply can't. It's kinda sad when people go in expert and here goes my friend who only been playing for 2 months and they say his rdm is better than 90% of the rdm's in duties, because he actually aoe.

[Tridus]

In duty finder? Accountable for what? It is a freaking game, you. Why are some people so obsessed with that? Don't you like how bad most of us poor mortals play in the duty finder? Good for you. Party finder is your tool. Use it, enjoy itl, and leave us poor mortals alone. See how easy it is?

Dungeons & Dragons is a game too. Try taking this attitude into a party in that, just screw around with no effort and make everyone work harder to deal with you. See how well that works when the other players are sitting at the same table with you. (FYI: Poorly.)

If you're doing stuff with other people, there's a basic expectation that you will do your share. If you're arguing that you shouldn't be held to that expectation and deseve to be carried because reasons, try taking that attitude into real life groups and see how it goes.

[akaneakki]

This is actually very funny. .

No, this is funny:

not only in video games but in life as well. .

You quote about some people irl and game being bad because parser put tension on players. Okay.Now, when you play, do you play by yourself or with others? I'm guess MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game So it's obvious people will play along on your side. Then look at this wonderful quote I put below me.

If you're doing stuff with other people, there's a basic expectation that you will do your share. If you're arguing that you shouldn't be held to that expectation and deseve to be carried because reasons, try taking that attitude into real life groups and see how it goes.

So, Erik501
I can go on the same coin towards you. If you want to sightseing in duty finder rather than clicking your aoe buttons, make a party finder then.