An Alternative? to parsers..

[Penthea]

If gear was truly the distinction as you say, why is it that my i297 PLD in full time tank stance can out DPS i330+ tanks. Why is it that my brother's ilvl 305 SAM did more damage than an entire party of roughly i320-325 players, by OVER double the second highest person in the group.

Great, bad and everything in between is always going to be in every mmo because every human is different. That is why this happens. Just because you can do something doesn't mean everyone else is in a position to or even wants to.

And no it's not due to the absence of parsers. I met plenty of bad players in WoW who had parsers. They didn't feel magically inspired to do their best, they just did the bare minimum that gave them a quiet life. Which sometimes wasn't enough in top tier content, and obviously it caused problems.

There is no mystical cure-all when it comes to lazy or bad players. They will always be around no matter how sophisticated and freely available parsing becomes. WoW is a prime example of this fact.

Gear matters for sure, but let's not be naive here and pretend that the average player is either mindbogglingly ignorant of MMO fundamentals, or lazy.

Well no, they're not. Average players play just fine. I mean, this is why they're called average. Not amazing but certainly acceptable.

[PondHollow]

For healing as stated above effecdtive healing (damage absorbed by shields also would count towards this) meaning no overheals would increase your "score"

Taking damage is never a great thing but it is the role of the tank do such so taking damage as a tank will have a reduced effect on the negative score listings comprared to healers and dps (avoid the orange muck), encouraging people to use those cooldowns to boost that "score"

Appropriate healer actions are extremely varied depending on the skill of the group. Mass and constant overhealing can be very reasonable if at any given moment there's a high likeliness some random party member is going to get themselves killed (and something like Diabolos or Hashmal would involve a lot of confusion if most people don't or can't perform well) and a grading system should not disincentivize people from playing with worse players so as to retain their own grading, so your grade should probably be affected less if the grade of your partymembers is lower.



The bonus you suggested for swift completion is an especially bad idea in this light.

[Nedkel]

Honestly I was going to respond to every single flat out inaccurate or misguided statement you made refuting your asinine statements, but I must admit you're quite possible one of the best trolls I've seen in a while. You win man, well played. Keep on keepin on. You may fool those other posters, but you're not fooling me. No self respecting intellectual would ACTUALLY believe the drivel that you're writing, especially with how laughably hypocritical you'd have to be to say those things without even realizing that FF14 has the EXACT same issues.

10/10 dude.

Lemme ask you a question, why do we need the parser for?
The only 2 reasons i know is:
- "because i want to improve to the very last inch" and thats completely fine
- Because noob team in duty finder in PVE and i seek for excuses why i lose time with randoms.

The second one is absurd as it sounds, you do not expect from bunch of randoms any level of the play, if you are queuing up for solo activity whatever game you play you have to expect the worst. That or search for some guild/free company that plays nicely and together.
Doesnt matter if it is ESO, blade and soul, wow or FF xiv, random dps players contains everyone, from someone playing on a microwave with 5 fps to someone that plays like a dota playing AI doing no mistakes at all.
The only thing not fair it that, dps is much easier role comparing to the tanks or healers, and i believe they should be rewarded greater for the harder job, not making dps harder because thats practially impossible without backlash.

[Tridus]

You will just flat out the gameplay of specific class, taking away fun mechanics, utility, CC or buffs so it will no longer be overpowered, since it has dps on pair with other classes, and you end up with balance purely gray and classes not different to each other.

I don't know what game you think you're playing, but nobody cares about CC already. Utility and buffs are all DPS oriented, and people actively want them over jobs without them. Why? Little thing called enrage timers. Which are based on DPS.

Turns out making mechanics that require a certain amount of DPS to win causes players to prioritize DPS. Who knew?

Thats what actually happen in League of legends few years ago, they were just giving damage to each champion and then they were forced to delete some of their mechanics away, because it turns out a mage (which got dmg buffed) with teleporting skill every few second is far stronger than a stationary mage that deals like 10% damage more, what they did? They increased the teleportation cooldown several times, and the character was no longer fun as it was before, killed it entirely.

Teleporting is extremely powerful in a MOBA. Any class with it is at a distinct advantage to one without it. This isn't rocket science.

Valuing dps is not hard task to do, but how do you value the part of the character designs that doesnt bring damage but instead is helping entire team or keeping you alive? Thats the biggest problem which comes with balance, and i bet SE would not want their playerbase to cry over certain classes, because they dont do as much dps as the others and asks for buffs. That will be annoying.
Basing balance around numbers will kill class diversity and fun, its not actually good at all.

... again, what game are you playing? Balance is already a problem FFXIV, people are already complaining about it, and SE has already said they're addressing some of it. This has been going on since forever, and it's all based around numbers.

So long as the game says you need X DPS to kill the boss before it wipes you, people will be prioritizing DPS. Hiding the DPS doesn't solve that, it just makes it harder for people to figure out what the problem is and how fix it.

Maybe you should sick to single players game where it doesn't matter if certain jobs are completely nonviable in some content. That doesn't work so well in a MMO.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No, because raiders wanted to single heal zurvan to farm him, and you needed to skip soar to have the DPS to be able to do fast farm runs and be able to do so. You can do the mechanic if you practice it enough; but once people cleared they didn't want to practice it or do it the slow way; they wanted high dps and soar was an easy sign of it. It became a meme because of that; the JP actually didn't skip soar as their base strat and beat him fine.

Unlike some people, I actually participate in this content. The sheer amount of people who couldn't do Soar, let alone had the DPS to skip it, was staggering. Plenty of groups with five and even six DPS still couldn't skip. Zurvan demonstrated just how many people cannot perform a basic rotation. He literally did next to nothing prior to Soar. Negligible auto-attacks and telegraphed aoes. Anyone with knowledge of the fight and their job should have skipped Soar. The check to do so was incredibly lenient. Regardless, if people advertised a "Skip Soar" farm party and you join yet have nowhere near the DPS to adequately skip. Why are you there in the first place? You aren't entitled to farming birds because you want one. The group clearly labeled their expectations and you didn't meet them.

I'll acknowledge doing the actual mechanic wasn't a big deal, but the meme originated due to how easy skipping Soar was with decent players. Not orange, top tier raiders. Just players who could perform a proper opener, healers that actually turned on Cleric Stance and tanks that didn't hug their tank stance.

[thegreatonemal]

Unlike some people, I actually participate in this content. The sheer amount of people who couldn't do Soar, let alone had the DPS to skip it, was staggering. Plenty of groups with five and even six DPS still couldn't skip. Zurvan demonstrated just how many people cannot perform a basic rotation. He literally did next to nothing prior to Soar. Negligible auto-attacks and telegraphed aoes. Anyone with knowledge of the fight and their job should have skipped Soar. The check to do so was incredibly lenient. Regardless, if people advertised a

and you like everyone else seems to assume the soar thing was just bad players. Not entirely the case it was a gear issue most groups skipping soar had item levels ranging from 265-270 those were the people skipping soar.

[akaneakki]

and you like everyone else seems to assume the soar thing was just bad players. Not entirely the case it was a gear issue most groups skipping soar had item levels ranging from 265-270 those were the people skipping soar.

Bull. I sold zurvan with 7 players, and we had 1 tank 2 healers and 4 dps, we skipped soar, why the hell couldn't 5 dps skip it? The fact healers could leave cleric on until it dropped down, made them hit the thing hard. So, please explain why 4 dps could skip soar and not 5, go ahead, do it. If gear was the issue then why doesnt 1 extra dps make it skippable???

[Melichoir]

Rankings is a soft version of parsing, which isnt to bad an idea. But the problem will ultimately be the same: At some point itll be a tool to bludgeon others with.

"Oh, you dindt get S rating on 'x','y', and 'z'? Youre trash!" /votekick.

While I dont think that that will happen a lot, you can expect it to happen enough to be noticed. There was an argument someone put forward stating "Only a microscopic handful of people with parsers talk trash. Most people want to be nice!" And I agree with that. But what they failed to acknowledge was that adding parsers to teh WIDER majority is going to substantially increase the rate of abuse proportional to the population. So if 500 people had parsers, and only 50 of them talked trash, thats one thing. When it goes live, if proportions hold up (which they will likely do), that number goes from 50, to 500 if the player base is 5000. Thts a lot of people.

[thegreatonemal]

Bull. I sold zurvan with 7 players, and we had 1 tank 2 healers and 4 dps, we skipped soar, why the hell couldn't 5 dps skip it? The fact healers could leave cleric on until it dropped down, made them hit the thing hard. So, please explain why 4 dps could skip soar and not 5, go ahead, do it. If gear was the issue then why doesnt 1 extra dps make it skippable???

sold being the key word the people running were all above the item levels i just stated right? thanks for proving my point. Adding a 5fth just as week dps does nothing to push it and that's assuming of course if they know their rotations.

now if you were selling in full 250 gear or some mixed and matched 260 gear with 4dps and were still skipping soar then you might have a leg to stand on

[akaneakki]

sold being the key word the people running were all above the item levels i just stated right? thanks for proving my point. Adding a 5fth just as week dps does nothing to push it and that's assuming of course if they know their rotations.

now if you were selling in full 250 gear or some mixed and matched 260 gear with 4dps and were still skipping soar then you might have a leg to stand on

No I didn't lmao. Lets imagine they are 4 dps doing 4.5k opener okay? so 4,5 x4 = 18k. Now, lets pretend those guys you talked about are lower ilvl, so their dps is about 3.8k to 4k, so lets go with 3.8k x5= 19k dps.
Oh, that's 1k more dps than the group of 4, with lower damage from everyone but they have 1 more dps, if every dps was at 3.5k it still should be enough. Now, I might be wrong, but wasn't the diabolo gear ilvl 260? And most people had 260/270 shire gear. But since people was clueless on openers, that never happened, even with 6 dps. Hell, there was a pretty fun meme going around. The diadem weapon was ilvl 280 vs the 275 alexander one and I remember we had a DRG with it and he was doing 400-500 less than me and the stats on his weapon was 1 more WD and crit/det on it with some skillspeed. Funny how people think ilvl will make them great at the game, which is far from it.