Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Selova]

snip

Do you have any evidence that "John" isn't being lazy? No, you don't. You keep striving to make a point by trying to come to the defense of people who play poorly by using nothing but hypotheticals, you can't accuse people of having no evidence when you are doing the exact same thing, basing every single case of someone playing poorly by pulling the "You don't know their situation" card. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Like Hyomin already mentioned, If you have a level 70 tank and have no idea how to hold hate, use cooldowns properly and know the mechanics of the bosses you do not get a "get out of jail free" card for poor performance and inconveniencing your group just because you happen to be the level of the content you are doing. Your entire argument is that every single person in every single dungeon that you end up with gets a free pass regardless of how poorly they play just because we don't know that players life story and should therefor make the entire group suffer poor and lazy performance based on nothing but hypotheticals.

I'm all for giving players the benefit of the doubt, especially when i know they are new, but no one in their sane mind is going to sit there, dungeon after dungeon suffering in silence while the entire run falls apart all due to your argument of "You shouldn't judge or assume why this player is playing this way because you don't know them or their circumstances"

I cannot even begin to fathom how much worse runs would be if we never removed poor players that are proving to be detrimental to group progress all because of "You don't know their story" and just let everything spiral into chaos because you don't want to offend them by assuming anything about them or their playstyle. Please just stop, this entire thing is ridiculous.

[ovIm]

I disagree. We are pushing this conversation more and more into the abstract (and honestly i think this is becoming a pretty interesting discussion as it becomes more abstract). To push it further, do circumstances matter at all?

John is a level 70 tank and queues for sastasha. It's his first time tanking a dungeon.
Jane is a level 15 tank and queues for sastasha. It's her first time tanking a dungeon.

For all intents and purposes, assume they are equally terrible. How should they be treated?

No, you can not abstract this. Its impossible. Sastasha as an entry level dungeon will always provide a different challenge than a high level dungeon, seeing as how the entry level dungeon has simpler mechanics and the player has to deal with less skills. You literally cannot compare these two, not even in an abstract way.

[Sebazy]

The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

At the end of the day, "John's" circumstances could be anything, just like a party member you might meet in a pug.

I'm sorry but no, I call complete rubbish on your stance here.

I'm a career healer if there ever was one and have almost exclusively healed in raids and PvP across various MMOs going back 20 years.

Rather handily, I've also got PLD at 70, likely because I got drunk, lost a bet or some such. Unsurprisingly but also rather neatly for this conversation at hand, I've got close to zero idea how the job is meant to be played at 70, I understand it's ARR/HW mechanics fairly well primarily through it simply not having any Yet despite this complete lack of experience or any real understanding of how to play the job, I can quite happily take it into expert and hold agro absolutely fine even if my DPS is somewhere between mediocre and abysmal. Why? Because I glanced over the tooltips and looked at which buttons say 'Increases enmity'.

That is literally all 'John' needs to do to be able to do his core role in the current crop of level 70 dungeons, when even that standard can't be met then I'm really struggling to think of any circumstances that would legitimately excuse them beyond simply being too young to grasp the concepts going around them (And in that case, what are they even doing playing this game?).

I'm definitely interested to hear if there are any circumstances that could prevent someone from simply hitting flash a bunch of times. And no, 'not knowing any better' isn't a valid answer IMHO, you don't have to enter a dungeon to read tooltips.

Oh and your Sastasha example is ironic, because frankly holding agro of a decent and better geared DPS there can actually be pretty challenging.

[winsock]

They should be assisted.

Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

Technically speaking, it's still inconsiderate (thoughtlessly causing hurt or inconvenience to others). They could have thought it out better, researched more, practice more, etc to not inconvenience their party members.

There is a huge difference from this scenario you’re now presenting, and your previous one of a level 70 tank that doesn’t know how to tank queuing into level 70 content wanting to learn, and assuming people would be just as accommodating.

I didn't say john was assuming the party would be accommodating or that he was queuing with the intent of learning. John queued because he thought he knew how to play and since he is level 70, he queued for a 70 dungeon. How did you come to the conclusion that he queued with the intention of learning from an accommodating party? You couldnt have known. If you couldn't know johns circumstances, you must have made them up. And if the circumstances were just dreamt up in your imagination, how can you hold john accountable? He never did the things you are accusing him of.

[Jijifli]

Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

Technically speaking, it's still inconsiderate (thoughtlessly causing hurt or inconvenience to others). They could have thought it out better, researched more, practice more, etc to not inconvenience their party members.

Here's your issue. You changed the dungeon in question to sastasha. Sastasha is the first dungeon, and to be completely honest, I expect literally 3 afk's if I go in there. Why? It's the first dungeon, people who'd been playing for maybe a day get into there. My example in Snowcloak, I'm getting irritated because the tank can't hold threat. I had a Sastasha in leveling roulette yesterday on my exact same job, with a similar case of pulling off the tank. Wanna know what I did differently? I assisted the player, explaining what can help them out. By the end of the dungeon, the player had the boss and could do his job.

Now if level 15 Jimmy could do it, why can't level 70 John? If he just listens in Sastasha he'll learn a lot.

[winsock]

Here's your issue. You changed the dungeon in question to sastasha.

What makes sastasha so special?
I've done most of the expert roulette roster without a healer (havent attempted since the addition of skalla). I've heard they can be completed without a tank. Why must it be sastasha?

I think its great you assisted the player in sastasha. I agree people who refuse to work with the party should be kicked (for example if you ask someone to use tank stance and flash but they refuse). What is the issue with assisting someone in say, Ala Mhigo instead of Sastasha if they need help? It's really not a big deal is it?

[HyoMinPark]

Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

You can’t use that argument against me, and you know it.

The prior statement was made when you were talking about level 70 content. The second scenario is level 15 content. Different arguments apply because the context is entirely different. There is a huge difference between a tank who doesn’t know how to tank queuing into level 70 content and level 15 content. The latter is clearly designed as entry-level, and is more adequate for both learning and teaching than level-cap, “expert” content.

I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

Tanking mobs in the overworld and tanking them in dungeons are entirely different.

I didn't say john was assuming the party would be accommodating or that he was queuing with the intent of learning. John queued because he thought he knew how to play and since he is level 70, he queued for a 70 dungeon. How did you come to the conclusion that he queued with the intention of learning from an accommodating party? You couldnt have known. If you couldn't know johns circumstances, you must have made them up. And if the circumstances were just dreamt up in your imagination, how can you hold john accountable? He never did the things you are accusing him of.

I can hold John accountable because he came into level 70 content and could not perform the very basics of his job description regardless of his “circumstances”. Again, there is a HUGE different between John in level 15 content and John in level 70 content.

What makes sastasha so special?
I've done most of the expert roulette roster without a healer (havent attempted since the addition of skalla). I've heard they can be completed without a tank. Why must it be sastasha?

I think its great you assisted the player in sastasha. I agree people who refuse to work with the party should be kicked (for example if you ask someone to use tank stance and flash but they refuse). What is the issue with assisting someone in say, Ala Mhigo instead of Sastasha if they need help? It's really not a big deal is it?

The difference is, you shouldn’t be teaching a PLD how Flash works in Ala Mhigo. If they are a level 70 PLD and don’t know how Flash functions after playing the job for 70 levels (or even just 10 if you want to assume maybe they jumped the job), then there is a huge problem there.

You shouldn’t be teaching someone the VERY BASICS OF THEIR ROLE at endgame.

[winsock]

I can hold John accountable because he came into level 70 content and could not perform the very basics of his job description regardless of his “circumstances”. Again, there is a HUGE different between John in level 15 content and John in level 70 content.

Could you elaborate on this huge difference?
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in sastasha, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: run into a group and use flash X times.
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in Ala Mhigo, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: keep shield oath activated, run into a group, and use flash X times.

Is mentioning shield oath such an inconvenience that you cant be bothered to assist people after level 30?

[Jijifli]

What makes sastasha so special?
I've done most of the expert roulette roster without a healer (havent attempted since the addition of skalla). I've heard they can be completed without a tank. Why must it be sastasha?

Actually this is my other issue now that you brought it up. Dungeons marked 'expert' have to be made numbingly easy because of people like John, in your examples, that can't grasp such basic things.

Imagine how much cooler our experts could go if people learned how to press flash?

If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in sastasha, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: run into a group and use flash X times.
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in Ala Mhigo, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: keep shield oath activated, run into a group, and use flash X times.

Is mentioning shield oath such an inconvenience that you cant be bothered to assist people after level 70?

First off, fixed that for you, since you called Ala Mhigo a level 30 dungeon.

Second of all, done that. Got called a c*nt that needs a life. Expert dungeons are so fun.

[HyoMinPark]

Could you elaborate on this huge difference?
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in sastasha, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: run into a group and use flash X times.
If i instruct someone with "the very basics" in Ala Mhigo, keeping it as simple as possible and expecting minimal performance, I might say: keep shield oath activated, run into a group, and use flash X times.

Is mentioning shield oath such an inconvenience that you cant be bothered to assist people after level 30?

Why should I be teaching a level 70 tank the importance of their tank stance? Or their cooldowns? Or their enmity combo? Shouldn’t they already have learned how those work after playing the job for 70 levels?

When you’re running endgame content, people are going to expect you to know how to perform your job/role at a level 70 level. And this is for all roles—I shouldn’t have to teach healers the importance of using HoTs or their stronger heals at level 70. I shouldn’t have to teach DPS how to use a basic AOE rotation or basic 1-2-3. The time to ask for basic levels of help is not at level 70.