Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Ceallach]

It's not, because if we get even more mobility tools, we may as well just never have cast times. Having a new ability to just cover for whenever swift or triple isn't up is just going to be button bloat all its own.

Giving Black Mage more than a token damage boost (To essentially even it out with Summoner, since we can't ever have nerfs) won't make it a comparable option. Giving Black Mage a large damage boost just starts the cycle of class buffing anew. Which I mean, if you're cool with that, then alright.

That's a gross overestimation of what that would do. What do you think would happen if summoner had no cast times? No one would play anything else ever. You'd just use Demi-Bahamut and spam Ruin II as quickly as you could because you could get a few hundred Wyrmwaves off that way. What would actually happen is black mage would get more mobility and more damage so they could actually compete with a job that shouldn't have out-parsed them to start with. But, you know, sure. Let's just assume you're right and throw the idea of logical fallacies out the window.

So here's what I would suggest. Does anyone remember FINAL FANTASY XI's elemental debuff spells that only black mages had? They were Burn, Drown, Choke, Rasp, Frost, and Shock. Any one of these would do elemental damage over time and penalize a related attribute. Burn, for example, was fire damage over time and a penalty to Intelligence. Now, obviously this wouldn't work exactly the same way in FINAL FANTASY XIV, plus we'd really only need two of these spells. Let's try something like this.

Burn
MP Cost: Equal to Fire
Range: 25 yalms, single-target
Potency: 20 fire, 20 fire over time for 21 seconds
Astral Fire +1, weakens victim's resistance to caster's Fire spells by 50%

Frost
MP Cost: Equal to Blizzard III
Range: 25 yalms, single-target
Potency: 70 ice, 40 ice over time for 24 seconds
Umbral Ice +1

And done. With two spells, both cast instantly without aid, black mages are now more damaging and more mobile without supporting the party or vastly changing the rotation. The rotation would then be Blizzard III, Enochian if it's not up, Frost, Ley Lines, Blizzard IV/Thunder III, Fire III, Burn, Triplecast, Fire IV thrice, Sharpcast if you have it, Fire, Fire IV some more, Fire III if you have Firestarter, Convert and more Fire IV if you have it up, Blizzard III, Foul, repeat. Burn is slightly weaker than Fire so that Fire is still used as it is now, and Frost is another Thunder III but without Thundercloud. Considering it takes nearly 33 seconds to complete one rotation at 1339 spell speed without abilities or traits (I checked), higher tiers should be able to pull off even more spells easily and while moving. And this is just a concept that would work with black mage's lore, the FINAL FANTASY series' lore, and the gameplay functions that need to be addressed.

Edit: Adding up the potencies and potency multipliers, black mages do 5854.4 potency in 32.9 seconds now at 1339 spell speed, assuming Thunder III is allowed to wear off and you don't use any abilities besides Enochian, nor do you make use of traits beyond Firestarter the one time via Sharpcast. With Burn and Frost as I wrote them added in, that becomes 7953.2 potency in 37.9 seconds. Compare that to what a summoner or red mage can do. Granted, this assumes Astral Fire III is an 80% potency buff on Fire spells and 30% potency debuff on Blizzard spells, with Umbral Ice III doing the same debuff to Fire spells. This also assumes everything is multiplicative (as in Fire IV's 260 potency multiplied by 1.1 for Enochian multiplied by 1.8 for Astral Fire III multiplied by 1.5 for Burn where applicable).

I've always wondered why BLMs could never reach into the void.

Because that's part of why the War of the Magi happened, and we don't want a Magi War II. Let's not do these things.

[Kabooa]

That's a gross overestimation of what that would do.

Burn

Frost

And done..

Black Mage's already maintain around 98-99% uptime in encounters when played well. Triple covers for most timed mechanics, well held procs deal with positioning, and swiftcast for emergencies. Knowing when you can abuse AM / BTL is almost as good as having a proc ready for movement.

Even a cursory glance at Bahamut Prime shows Black Mage at 75% uptime (these are among the best players in the world) compared to Machinist, Melee uptimes of 77%. Likely due to the many forced downtime mechanic phases.

In other words, you are overemphasizing how badly Black Mages need mobility compared to needing to know when to use it. When Black Mages know when to use their tools, they have almost no downtime even compared to a job who has the highest uptime (Ranged DPS).

I'm assuming Burn is meant to be -5%, because in no way are you getting -50%. However, at 5% Burn isn't worth using instead of another Fire 4, at 10% you probably might as well remove Fire 1, and anything higher than 10% is absurd.

Frost invalidates Blizzard 4 and it might as well be removed.

[Amoryenar]

Okay so.

Looking past all this potency crap and numbers that I don't really give a crap about.

Giving BLM a raise would break the Lore so badly. I know a lot of you guys don't give two craps about the lore but you forget this is an rpg. If an rpg sets up lore that states, quite obviously I might add, that Thaumaturgy is about death and destroying things then gives a class that is, according to lore, ILLEGAL in the realm of magic, it would become the most awful rpg. There's no way to sugar coat it.

To all the people complaining about the lack of mobility that BLM has: just stop playing BLM. Play SMN or RDM, BLM isn't for you.

Also, Manashift is great on a BLM for one reason: infinite mana. Just shift to Umbral Ice and regen your mana, this isn't a hard concept.

[Kabooa]

Also, Manashift is great on a BLM for one reason: infinite mana. Just shift to Umbral Ice and regen your mana, this isn't a hard concept.

This is irrelevant as Summoner is currently running a surplus on MP. So they are effectively just as good on Mana Shift with effortless weaving because half of their stuff is instant.

Also, very few groups don't run a Bard or Machinist, who currently invalidate (or enable, depending on your view) Mana shift.

[LeeraSorlan]

@Amoryenar


The problem is you are talking about lore in a game that breaks lore already in so many ways with the most terrible excuse as to why it "fits" into the lore... hildibrand? Ozma, gilgamesh? every FF boss fanservice appearance? Ivalice has been stated by the devs multiple times to not exist in this games lore, and yet we have rabanastre. the void is there main excuse, gilgamesh is here because the void, omega summons creatures through the void, exdeath came through the void, world of darkness came through the void...i mean if you want to get technical, they can say " a sub creation of the blackmage has came through the void and bestowed his knowledge and skills to the thaumaturge and blackmages of eorzea" Being from another dimension, black mages of that universe could have a different way of study and a different lore based around what kind of job they are. but ykno it fits the lore cos THE VOID.

Ths is why i say the lore is irrelevant. not because its not good lore, or because i dont care about the lore...but because the lore is such a vague thing in this specific game, that they need only make one small excuse of an adjustment and suddenly it fits in the lore.

[EllieShadeflare]

@Amoryenar


The problem is you are talking about lore in a game that breaks lore already in so many ways with the most terrible excuse as to why it "fits" into the lore...

This is so offensive that it's honestly kinda sad. So, let me point out where you're wrong.

hildibrand?

He's a comedic character who utilizes comedic logic in a world that is willing to support the comedic logic even if it isn't primarily comedic.

Ozma,

They literally stated that this incarnation of Ozma was a superweapon built by Mhach, much in the same way that Ultima and Proto Ultima were superweapons built by Allag.

gilgamesh

Gilgamesh exists in the meta FF lore. In fact, he's the only FF character to always be the same character. Note that any time I mention a boss/character in this game, it'll be referred to as this incarnation but for Greg? He's always the same character, no matter how much his appearance changes.

every FF boss fanservice appearance?

The same way they do in other games: They're not the same incarnation as the previous version. Even if they look the same, they're not (with few exceptions, like potentially Omega).

Ivalice has been stated by the devs multiple times to not exist in this games lore, and yet we have rabanastre.

Did they? I don't think they actually have, especially considering the map for Ivalice heavily coincide with FFXIV's map. That, or it may have been a deflection.

the void is there main excuse,

This is when anyone in their right mind would stop taking you seriously, because it's really not. The only real things that are excused by the Void are Voidsent, Voidsent related activities and Gilgamesh.

gilgamesh is here because the void,

Only one here that is actually true.

omega summons creatures through the void,

This is a machine that literally creates life. It does not summon creatures.

exdeath came through the void,

Blatantly false if you actually played Omega, for he is actually based on a fairy tale that just so happens to resemble the FFV backstory for him and Omega just made him manifest.

world of darkness came through the void...

The World of Darkness IS the Void, you dingus. Or at least part of it.

i mean if you want to get technical, they can say " a sub creation of the blackmage has came through the void and bestowed his knowledge and skills to the thaumaturge and blackmages of eorzea" Being from another dimension, black mages of that universe could have a different way of study and a different lore based around what kind of job they are. but ykno it fits the lore cos THE VOID.

Except our Black Mages (at least, the ones taught by Lalai aka US) would never accept teachings from void related shenanigans. See: Every time we saw Black Mages consort with void magic (Memeupo, our old 1.x teacher and the Defiant) or see the results of consorting with Void Magic (Ququruka's abomination at the end of the 2.x BLM storyline, the entirety of Mhach's demise, Nym, Amdapor).

As far as we've seen through the lore and the story, void magic is such bad news that we'd basically have to sink to such a low point that Eorzea already hates us before we begin thinking about using it.

Ths is why i say the lore is irrelevant. not because its not good lore, or because i dont care about the lore...but because the lore is such a vague thing in this specific game, that they need only make one small excuse of an adjustment and suddenly it fits in the lore.

Unfortunately, it's not, but anyone can make anything look "vague" by refusing to explain anything.

I've always wondered why BLMs could never reach into the void.

I know I'm late, but as I've briefly explained in this posts and others, while Black Magic has led to Void Magic, we, the protagonists don't use it because the lore and the story has shown that Void Magic is very, very bad news.

It's led to the destruction of at least FOUR civilizations (Allag (because Xande pledged himself and the Allagan Empire to the Cloud of Darkness), Amdapor (because Mhach planted Diabolos and also the eventual flood), Nym (gotta love voidsent that create plagues), and ESPECIALLY Mhach (because the flood and also void magic and voidsent are so fickle, they're pretty much quick to turn on its users unless they're full blown Ascian).

Every time we see Void Magic and Voidsent involved in the lore, it has always always ALWAYS been used for ill will and even if it hasn't, it still leads to very bad news. See: Edda, EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE PALACE OF THE DEAD, the Defiant, Memeupo (our old 1.x Thaumaturge mentor), the abomination created by Ququruka out of his old followers that we see in the Level 50 Black Mage quest, the Defiant being seen as a very bad group, everything to do with a specific curse afflicted on a Red Mage quest NPC in our team and a similar power used by the 50-60 villain, anything to do with the Ascians, Crystal Tower, Shadows of Mhach... I... really don't have to go on, do I?

In addition, it's pretty clear that whatever form of Black Magic we're using, Lalai is deliberately steering us away from Void Magic at all costs... which isn't exactly unsupported by the original creator of the art when she appears later on when she calls us a true successor to her art. Hell, our avoiding Void Magic is in part what's leading to the whispers that Black Magic may be inching its way to being lore acceptable to be in the open... so long as we don't start using the void.

[Amoryenar]

Hildibrand is not considered a canon figure in FF.

Mhachi Black Mages tried to control the void and it backfired on them during the War of the Magi before the events of the Sixth Umbral Calamity which, if you paid attention to the RDM Storyline, gave rise to Ala Mhigo and Red Magic. BLMs cannot reach into the void lest you want another Calamity.

[Amoryenar]

@Amoryenar


gilgamesh is here because the void, omega summons creatures through the void, exdeath came through the void, world of darkness came through the void...i mean if you want to get technical, they can say " a sub creation of the blackmage has came through the void and bestowed his knowledge and skills to the thaumaturge and blackmages of eorzea" but ykno it fits the lore cos THE VOID.

Omega exists outside of our dimension that doesn't mean the void.
Gilgamesh has nothing to do with the void
Hildibrand's questline was a joke, it's been stated
Why would you waste a swiftcast on an immobile class to raise someone? People already complain about the lack of mobility the last thing anyone wants to hear is people complaining about losing enochian because they had to waste swiftcast on a raise.

[LeeraSorlan]

Omega exists outside of our dimension that doesn't mean the void.
Gilgamesh has nothing to do with the void
Hildibrand's questline was a joke, it's been stated
Why would you waste a swiftcast on an immobile class to raise someone? People already complain about the lack of mobility the last thing anyone wants to hear is people complaining about losing enochian because they had to waste swiftcast on a raise.

Gilgamesh has alot to do with the void._.

In any case, its a pointless debate at this point i guess, i dont want BLM to have a raise, i never did and i strongly disagree with the idea.


I just figured theres alot more useful reasons why BLM shouldnt get a raise besides lore, lore is the weakest arguement against why not, imo.


its clear how many disagree with that it seems, so theres little point dragging it on