Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Claviusnex]

I don't play a BLM but having followed this thread I think there is an over emphasis on the effectiveness of the SMN raise and its use as a rationale for the BLM to have one. It isn't so much an MP management issue as a waste of Swiftcast or the loss of DPS during the normal 7.5 second cast time. It is useful in four person content for when the healer dies or the tank dies and the healer picks up aggro. The problem arises when you have more than one healer or other class with raise ability. Healers/raisers using chat announcements as part of their raise macros help but the problem is wasting a Swiftcast in an attempt to raise a party member due to another player just beating you to the raise. This has two effects. First, it means there is a good chance that Swiftcast might not be available for Wymwave attacks thereby affecting part of our largest DPS burst rotation. Second, if you have to cast a raise during the Swiftcast CD you are stuck with a 7.5 second cast time. Again that is a lot of DPS lost and if it is a healer you are saving that raise frequently results in your death as well. Some of the suggestions for a BLM heal are even more crippled than this making it even more likely to be a wasted action. So while I don't want to lose the ability to raise it is being given credit for being more useful than I have found it to be.

I don't think SMN being preferred for progression is so much the raise ability as it is our mobility. Couple that with, at the moment, pretty good DPS and usable if weak buffs and we bring flexibility the BLM doesn't have. Being able to move while dealing DPS is important as folks learn mechanics and shouldn't be underestimated. It can mean the difference between being successful or wiping. Once mechanics are learned and people know where to stand ahead of time mobility isn't as important. I think if you really want to increase BLM viability then it should be in the area of mobility and some type of group buff or ability. Add in a DPS increase as well and I think you will do better at increasing the job's viability while keeping job uniqueness.

[Llugen]

As a current SMN "main" I can agree that SMN mobility is its strongest point in Unending (besides its DoT damage in the last phase) but the class still HAS the ability to Raise. If you go watch Eirene's clear video of Unending, he uses no less than two raises in the fight and still ends on top (significantly higher than poor Sfia did on BLM in there).


Being able to do a lap around the entire arena during DWT at no cost is definitely handy, but my point is that it still has access to it and is capable of covering it, and in this example, it was covered with flying colors.


And again, CERTAINLY no one has suggested that the only thing that will fix BLM is access to raise, but it is just one more factor in why BLM is shunned from groups currently. The caster role is imbalanced, as such.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

It's simple; because we don't want BLM to be that job. It's fine if RDM, the Black/White magic synthesis job, wants to rez dispense...

Honestly at this point, based mostly on forum feedback a lot of RDMs don't even want to rez dispense anymore, at least from what I've seen anyway. Slap a 30 second cooldown on it, but still let it be dualcast, that way RDM retains a sort of White Magic niche, but hopefully doesn't just become living training wheels.

As for BLM, you could do a Cauterize sort of Raise, where it raises the target to 100% but it drains at a mild pace until they get healed, think like 2-3% every 3 seconds maybe. I'll think on it some more.

[Ceallach]

it is true that Raise makes the least sense on BLM of any caster

This was exactly my point regarding both lore and gameplay, and it's kind of why I oppose you on giving a Raise variant to the black mage so vehemently.

Furthermore, I still think Dualcast + Verraise shoud be nerfed.

I don't. The MP cost on Verraise makes it very bad to spam like that. Good red mages wouldn't be "rez dispensers." Red mage's only way to get MP back is Lucid Dreaming, while summoner has Aetherflow and Energy Drain, and black mage has Umbral Ice.

I think if you really want to increase BLM viability then it should be in the area of mobility and some type of group buff or ability. Add in a DPS increase as well and I think you will do better at increasing the job's viability while keeping job uniqueness.

Llugen, this is intelligent advice.

And again, CERTAINLY no one has suggested that the only thing that will fix BLM is access to raise, but it is just one more factor in why BLM is shunned from groups currently. The caster role is imbalanced, as such.

I agree that no one has suggested a Raise variant is the only way to fix black mage, but we've already debunked every potential reason why it would help. The caster role is imbalanced because black mages don't do enough damage to justify them not having any utility options, and this is only hurt by their lack of mobility. Basically, black mage should have the highest DPS, while summoner and red mage should about tie for DPS so you have the choice between damage and two types of utility. And there are a ton of reasons why, including both lore and gameplay, that a Raise variant would be unacceptable.

Honestly at this point, based mostly on forum feedback a lot of RDMs don't even want to rez dispense anymore, at least from what I've seen anyway.

We shouldn't. It's too costly. If we try that while Lucid Dreaming is on recast, we're basically dead with only weak weaponskills to use. I've actually told people that I'm busy when they ask me to help with raising. Anyway, let's stop trying to make a Raise variant work on black mage. It'll only encourage the bad arguments to continue.

[Kabooa]

Llugen, this is intelligent advice.

It's not, because if we get even more mobility tools, we may as well just never have cast times. Having a new ability to just cover for whenever swift or triple isn't up is just going to be button bloat all its own.

Giving Black Mage more than a token damage boost (To essentially even it out with Summoner, since we can't ever have nerfs) won't make it a comparable option. Giving Black Mage a large damage boost just starts the cycle of class buffing anew. Which I mean, if you're cool with that, then alright.

[Rerenasu]

I've always wondered why BLMs could never reach into the void. When you look at gameplay, most enemy mages can call mobs from the void as adds that work against our odds. I say develop a spell to have us call on the void. Before you say "That turns you into a summoner," let me lay down some rules:

1) Once out of the void, you can't control the mobs. Maybe give them secondary targets beside the main boss.

2) Duration would only last one minute total (30 sec for 5-6 mobs to pop out/30 sec for mobs to be "tethered" to void). Recast in 3-5 mins

3) Pulls from BLM ~300-500 MP (may create MP management challenge to BLMs (some people may like that)).

BLMs either sacrifice mobility or DPS, so I say give em something cool!

P.S.
Add visible capes to belt slot or something!

[Ceallach]

It's not, because if we get even more mobility tools, we may as well just never have cast times. Having a new ability to just cover for whenever swift or triple isn't up is just going to be button bloat all its own.

Giving Black Mage more than a token damage boost (To essentially even it out with Summoner, since we can't ever have nerfs) won't make it a comparable option. Giving Black Mage a large damage boost just starts the cycle of class buffing anew. Which I mean, if you're cool with that, then alright.

That's a gross overestimation of what that would do. What do you think would happen if summoner had no cast times? No one would play anything else ever. You'd just use Demi-Bahamut and spam Ruin II as quickly as you could because you could get a few hundred Wyrmwaves off that way. What would actually happen is black mage would get more mobility and more damage so they could actually compete with a job that shouldn't have out-parsed them to start with. But, you know, sure. Let's just assume you're right and throw the idea of logical fallacies out the window.

So here's what I would suggest. Does anyone remember FINAL FANTASY XI's elemental debuff spells that only black mages had? They were Burn, Drown, Choke, Rasp, Frost, and Shock. Any one of these would do elemental damage over time and penalize a related attribute. Burn, for example, was fire damage over time and a penalty to Intelligence. Now, obviously this wouldn't work exactly the same way in FINAL FANTASY XIV, plus we'd really only need two of these spells. Let's try something like this.

Burn
MP Cost: Equal to Fire
Range: 25 yalms, single-target
Potency: 20 fire, 20 fire over time for 21 seconds
Astral Fire +1, weakens victim's resistance to caster's Fire spells by 50%

Frost
MP Cost: Equal to Blizzard III
Range: 25 yalms, single-target
Potency: 70 ice, 40 ice over time for 24 seconds
Umbral Ice +1

And done. With two spells, both cast instantly without aid, black mages are now more damaging and more mobile without supporting the party or vastly changing the rotation. The rotation would then be Blizzard III, Enochian if it's not up, Frost, Ley Lines, Blizzard IV/Thunder III, Fire III, Burn, Triplecast, Fire IV thrice, Sharpcast if you have it, Fire, Fire IV some more, Fire III if you have Firestarter, Convert and more Fire IV if you have it up, Blizzard III, Foul, repeat. Burn is slightly weaker than Fire so that Fire is still used as it is now, and Frost is another Thunder III but without Thundercloud. Considering it takes nearly 33 seconds to complete one rotation at 1339 spell speed without abilities or traits (I checked), higher tiers should be able to pull off even more spells easily and while moving. And this is just a concept that would work with black mage's lore, the FINAL FANTASY series' lore, and the gameplay functions that need to be addressed.

Edit: Adding up the potencies and potency multipliers, black mages do 5854.4 potency in 32.9 seconds now at 1339 spell speed, assuming Thunder III is allowed to wear off and you don't use any abilities besides Enochian, nor do you make use of traits beyond Firestarter the one time via Sharpcast. With Burn and Frost as I wrote them added in, that becomes 7953.2 potency in 37.9 seconds. Compare that to what a summoner or red mage can do. Granted, this assumes Astral Fire III is an 80% potency buff on Fire spells and 30% potency debuff on Blizzard spells, with Umbral Ice III doing the same debuff to Fire spells. This also assumes everything is multiplicative (as in Fire IV's 260 potency multiplied by 1.1 for Enochian multiplied by 1.8 for Astral Fire III multiplied by 1.5 for Burn where applicable).

I've always wondered why BLMs could never reach into the void.

Because that's part of why the War of the Magi happened, and we don't want a Magi War II. Let's not do these things.

[Kabooa]

That's a gross overestimation of what that would do.

Burn

Frost

And done..

Black Mage's already maintain around 98-99% uptime in encounters when played well. Triple covers for most timed mechanics, well held procs deal with positioning, and swiftcast for emergencies. Knowing when you can abuse AM / BTL is almost as good as having a proc ready for movement.

Even a cursory glance at Bahamut Prime shows Black Mage at 75% uptime (these are among the best players in the world) compared to Machinist, Melee uptimes of 77%. Likely due to the many forced downtime mechanic phases.

In other words, you are overemphasizing how badly Black Mages need mobility compared to needing to know when to use it. When Black Mages know when to use their tools, they have almost no downtime even compared to a job who has the highest uptime (Ranged DPS).

I'm assuming Burn is meant to be -5%, because in no way are you getting -50%. However, at 5% Burn isn't worth using instead of another Fire 4, at 10% you probably might as well remove Fire 1, and anything higher than 10% is absurd.

Frost invalidates Blizzard 4 and it might as well be removed.

[Amoryenar]

Okay so.

Looking past all this potency crap and numbers that I don't really give a crap about.

Giving BLM a raise would break the Lore so badly. I know a lot of you guys don't give two craps about the lore but you forget this is an rpg. If an rpg sets up lore that states, quite obviously I might add, that Thaumaturgy is about death and destroying things then gives a class that is, according to lore, ILLEGAL in the realm of magic, it would become the most awful rpg. There's no way to sugar coat it.

To all the people complaining about the lack of mobility that BLM has: just stop playing BLM. Play SMN or RDM, BLM isn't for you.

Also, Manashift is great on a BLM for one reason: infinite mana. Just shift to Umbral Ice and regen your mana, this isn't a hard concept.

[dinnertime]

I've always wondered why BLMs could never reach into the void.

Because Black Magic is completely different from Void Magic.