Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[EllieShadeflare]

The vast majority of less than 1% of the game subscription, half of which it's hard to tell exactly how good they are with Black Mage.

I'm saying of those who came into this topic and commented.

But remember, it's as Llugen said earlier:

You can't assume your level of skill or any one level of skill for all players in the game.

So, whether or not you're defending Llugen or against them, always keep this quote in mind.

[Karshan]

I agree with Fannah : half the people agaisnt raise just don't want to have to care about other party members. I strongly disagree with that state of mind, but it is a game and it's their call after all. I think some fear if raise is added, there'll be a pressure on them to raise dead guys. And there will be (whenever there's a raiser I ask them to in order to avoid wasting healers MP on tough fights, and do it myself), and I can understand they don't like the pressure.

So if you want a Raise on the BLM, I guess it will have to come with a 800 potency dmg hit on the boss on top of it, if you see what I mean.

Hey, what if Foul allowed you to raise someone ? Like using it gives you access to an oGCD that resurects Just kidding, don't want to add fire on the debate

[Ceallach]

Lore is irrelevant.

This is where we disagree. Lore is not irrelevant at all. Lore is why we have a world at all, why jobs are different, and a lot more.

Quoted for emphasis.

[Llugen]

Another idea might be to frontload the cast time of raise onto the dead target, so the "raise" goes off on the person but they have to wait 8 seconds before they can accept it every time. This could fit in with Gait's elemental idea pretty well I think.


The whole point is that we don't want to NEED to use the skill on BLM, but have it in case we need it. I really hope this has started to make sense to people in this thread. Literally no one who plays BLM wants to enter Umbral Ice, and then Triplcast + RaiseRaiseRaise. Great care is needed to figure out how to tread lightly in this situation, just like Sfia said back on page ~25.

I do like the idea of "if you use the Raise, gives you a passive 1% damage up for the rest of the fight" or something but people pointed out that could be used for grief play. Then again, everyone was worried about rescue for grief play and that seems to have panned out just fine...


I mean, it's not a bad idea if using the raise would then give a free off-GCD for 700 potency that you could then use on a target, I mean that's something, but it's all still on recast. All this stuff is stuff to toy with.

[Kabooa]

I'm saying of those who came into this topic and commented.

But remember, it's as Llugen said earlier:

So, whether or not you're defending Llugen or against them, always keep this quote in mind.

Which is why you balance around top level play. You certainly don't dismiss the views of a lower tier player so easily, but you do consider their experience when it comes to what they perceive as the weakness in a job.

Black Mage's lack of any party tools is its weakness. You can buff its damage all you like, but it would require a huge, gamebreaking amount to invalidate that truth. I'm not going to say I wouldn't take such a change, but it's just going to be invalidated in a couple mini-patches when everyone else gets boosted up the same amount.

[Fannah]

And what about a self-Raise, no debuff , 180sec CD? So he has raise (but only for him), lacking of mobility can be "forgiven" every 3 min and everyone is happy. [/irony]

[Remedi]

It's not about grief play, it's more like it's useless in the grand scheme, niche on prog and nothing else tbh.

That said I want to tackle the gameplay balance and lore point, that has ppl in contention, a bit.

Both are actually important, lore grants identity to the class which avoids the samey feels of the jobs, while balance allows for jobs to be usable in the game.
Frankly this game is one of the most balanced that I've played since even content like ultimate it's the skill of the group that allows the clear and not just the composition, though I would say that a content like ultimate is not something I've ever seen since any comparable content has gear that allows you to somewhat trivialize it, while in it's case you were at the gear cap and you couldn't go any higher which means that everything is in the hands of the players/balance teams.
Since kills without NIN have been reported, we can say that the balance of the game is in acceptable terms when looked to the general, but ofc there are problems that appears on high end play and on a closer scrutiny.

As said I'm against BLM receiving a raise skill, but I've also shown that lore wise the most acceptable way for it to receive it would be a preemptive raise (shatotto was able to store her soul away and all that jazz) that way you could cast it on one healer (since the complaint is that if both dies it's a game over) and they can resurrect themselves.
Frankly another way is making Raise a role skill, because the role skill is an agglomerate of skills that are considered to be of use to the role and that would have no sense to make different skills have the same effect (though they demonstrated to have different ideas on the subject since while rampart and shadowskin were condensed and sent to the role actions, they created the useless tether ability for RDM to give them tether for....some reasons).

I don't really understand however why ppl feel so scary about the possibility of triple raise while atm we have a job that can raise without any penalty and another who effectively has raise as a 2 secs cast

[Llugen]

It's simple; because we don't want BLM to be that job. It's fine if RDM, the Black/White magic synthesis job, wants to rez dispense, but despite everything I've said in defense of BLM getting raise for balance, it is true that Raise makes the least sense on BLM of any caster, particularly in a rapid-fire manner. This is why we should tread lightly with its implementation, because this alone does not nullify the imbalance in this MMORPG, where each player plays only one class and therefore careful consideration is taken into account for it (vs a single player game where who even cares if the BLM can't use raise, it can use a phoenix down, or someone else can, or whatever, "balance" doesn't matter in the least).

Furthermore, I still think Dualcast + Verraise shoud be nerfed. I've been preaching this since I realized it could do it at the dawn of 4.0. It's a simple fix, just change Verraise cast time and MP cost to match the other Raise spells, and remove the dualcast ability from it, so it can still swiftcast the raise just not dispense.


I'm not opposed to a self-raise, but I feel like that's pretty underwhelming compared to the other two casters' raises. It's not really a big party support at that point. Besides, a self raise I feel like would be better on BLU, makes more sense from taking hits, right? I'd rather see a "buff" to give to a player (likely a healer) that grants them their next Raise for free and instant cast (so essentially gives them a raise proc) on some kind of recast. But even still, the healer would have to actually execute the action.

Pre-raise isn't a bad idea either, but it becomes less useful when you don't know who it is that's going to stand in the stack of Weight of the Land (or the 4.2 equivalent) and get one-shot. Then we're back to square one.

[Fannah]

Got an idea, BLM can put a powerful aetherial shield on an ally about to die (or not), and if the shield breaks it provides a status on the ally, and if 3 sec later the ally is still alive, it means the shield has been useful, and it grants the BLM an Enochian timer reset (So it can be used when boss flies/leaves (when we can't cast on him/her) and the attack will break the shield, and they got a reset Enochian. So using their shield at another moment would in a way lower their dps as they won't be able to have that easy reset Enochian during boss' untargetable phasis.
Tbh I don't think it would be that stupid overall, and it would help everyone, BLM's dps as people survivability.

[Remedi]

It's simple; because we don't want BLM to be that job. It's fine if RDM, the Black/White magic synthesis job, wants to rez dispense, but despite everything I've said in defense of BLM getting raise for balance, it is true that Raise makes the least sense on BLM of any caster, particularly in a rapid-fire manner. This is why we should tread lightly with its implementation, because this alone does not nullify the imbalance in this MMORPG, where each player plays only one class and therefore careful consideration is taken into account for it (vs a single player game where who even cares if the BLM can't use raise, it can use a phoenix down, or someone else can, or whatever, "balance" doesn't matter in the least).

Furthermore, I still think Dualcast + Verraise shoud be nerfed. I've been preaching this since I realized it could do it at the dawn of 4.0. It's a simple fix, just change Verraise cast time and MP cost to match the other Raise spells, and remove the dualcast ability from it, so it can still swiftcast the raise just not dispense.


I'm not opposed to a self-raise, but I feel like that's pretty underwhelming compared to the other two casters' raises. It's not really a big party support at that point. Besides, a self raise I feel like would be better on BLU, makes more sense from taking hits, right? I'd rather see a "buff" to give to a player (likely a healer) that grants them their next Raise for free and instant cast (so essentially gives them a raise proc) on some kind of recast. But even still, the healer would have to actually execute the action.

Pre-raise isn't a bad idea either, but it becomes less useful when you don't know who it is that's going to stand in the stack of Weight of the Land (or the 4.2 equivalent) and get one-shot. Then we're back to square one.

I would say that RDM should lose the ability to dualcast raise and get a fix to their MP sustain since even with shroud they need refresh to be MP neutral and atm no job in ST has a moment where they run out of resources.
Frankly If I have to compare SAM and RDM, I would say that SAM has a better overall structure compared to RDM since they have 2 essnetially resources to manage and they interact with one another while keeping in line with their mastery of sword combat that they appeal to, meanwhile RDM barely scratches the spellcaster with melee strikes just barely at least in my opinion.

I know that the pre-raise Idea has that weakness, but frankly it's something that will be used when both the healers gets incapacitated and as such is targeted towards that situation and not as a general raise idea.
Reraise is gonna happen eventually so I guess that BLM could get something on that note instead of yet another raise

Then again even warcraft that had this mechanic later allowed the caster to target corpses so that they could be raised so I could be wrong.
I'd rather have the other way around still but we'll see.

Edit: Any form of buffs from raising should be avoided however they are not very useful in the end