Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Reinha]

Playing poorly is acceptable in specific content. That's because the stage before getting good is being bad and possibly not knowing it. Improving performance entails first being at a lower level of performance, then realizing it, and later being at a higher level of performance. Depending on the game content it should be expected to run into the players who have not yet improved or realized the need to.

This content is usually leveling content, but since the jump potions were introduced the game has "started" from level 60 for some people. If you expect everyone in Sirensong (or lower content) always to have a grasp of the game when it is possible someone totally new to gaming could be in your party, well it's just unrealistic expectations. However the later leveling dungeons and Shinryu are pretty good at training players so it's very rare to encounter totally hopeless players in max level content. But if it happens to you and it bothers you, then all you can do is be a good example and guide people to ensure they realize their need and areas to improve. Sometimes guidance involves kicking those with bad attitude.

[Alleo]

Playing poorly is acceptable in specific content. That's because the stage before getting good is being bad and possibly not knowing it. Improving performance entails first being at a lower level of performance, then realizing it, and later being at a higher level of performance. Depending on the game content it should be expected to run into the players who have not yet improved or realized the need to.

This content is usually leveling content, but since the jump potions were introduced the game has "started" from level 60 for some people. If you expect everyone in Sirensong (or lower content) always to have a grasp of the game when it is possible someone totally new to gaming could be in your party, well it's just unrealistic expectations. However the later leveling dungeons and Shinryu are pretty good at training players so it's very rare to encounter totally hopeless players in max level content. But if it happens to you and it bothers you, then all you can do is be a good example and guide people to ensure they realize their need and areas to improve. Sometimes guidance involves kicking those with bad attitude.

I agree that we should be fine with people still learning their class/job in the lower dungeons but I disagree with the point about jump potions. Honestly if you need to level up your job with such a potion and then jump into group content..well I will hold you to the same level as someone that started from the beginning. It was their decision to jump upwards and it should not hold the others in the group back. Those that jump should learn their job before they go into such content and honestly I wished that they would have introduced an forced tutorial for such people. I am fine if they dont really know all the mechanics right now but I will not be fine with someone having no idea for their job in lvl 60 content and upwards. Its on them to have at least a basic understanding.

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

What kind of argument is that? Since when can someone that young even play games like FF14? Also imo its important to even teach kids at a young age that they need to play games with the rules otherwise you might turn them into those that dont care about rules at all and cry all the time if they cant win their way; so no letting children just play those games like they want to will probably lead to just teaching them things wrong..still I dont understand how that makes sense in relation to FF14? You need to be a certain age to play this without an adult at your side. And I kinda dont see how teenagers should be free from having to at least understand the basics..

For some (which is silly, when it comes to playing with other strangers. Though this goes into a deeper issue of respect for fellow players.) the baseline standard is tank should tank, a healer should heal, and a dps should dps. That is the baseline standard, anything beyond that is a expectation placed by the players not the game. Duty finder is random, the experience will suffer from massive variance swings, and trying to place individual player expectations on random players also suffers from such variance swings.

But for example the training halls for newer players do say that healers should DPS when they got free time, so doesnt the game itself just want more than just healing? Or all the DPS checks in dungeons. If you only need to DPS no matter what then why do we have so many DPS checks? And lets not forget that those bad players will just be carried through such a check by a very good player that has to play the best to even go through this..If you have two bad DD you will not manage to beat this so no just simply doing any kind of DPS is not the standard. (And lets not forget the vault, a great wake up call for healers. )

And the problem is not only dungeons where you will often be able to carry such a person..no you will have those join kill and farm groups for recent primals too. And even though we dont have a great tool ingame we still have stone, sky and sea that kinda hints at the amount of DPS needed. So if someone joins this that cant get it at least down to <10% on that puppet wouldnt that mean that they cant fulfill the basics of this fight and should not join it?

[PuppytimusLeoroccanz]

snip/ job jump potions

I agree with your points raised in regards to the jump potion. This is just an opinion of mine but I believe job/class jump potions are meant for players who already have an understanding of the game with their previous class let's say they got to 60/70 as a melee dps and instead of like leveling another melee dps from lvl 1 to 60 it would certainly take quite some time in order to do so but at least they have a rough idea of how melee dps functions although still have different mechanics from job to job basis which can be adapted in time.

The problem seems to be apparently are new players trying to head straight to storm blood/end game contents by boosting or people simply boosting a role that they are not familiar with for whatever reason it may be.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

I have never done healer hall, but do they say should or could? I agree a healer should DPS, and a tank should pull as much as he and the group can handle. Even semi afk players should be able to handle more then one group at a time. I mean most dungeons are trivial if people pull one group at a time.

Though I will be honest, our group has yet to clear current savage we need a lot more practice since we play with players that have certain limitations that is neither here nor there. Though so far we have been able to carry our friends through content despite them pretty much only using one or two skill since they like how they look.

Though I have seen videos of clears of two solid DPS pushing through the DPS check, doesn't that go to show that the dps checks are more or less a joke? Though if healers hall does say they should dps I prob will start trying to kick healers that sit around do nothing when not healing, normally I just leave the group if I do not want to deal with it. Never kicked a healer for that since I thought that would be a harassment, though if the healers hall say they should then rip for those healers that sit around and do nothing.

Speaking of hall, why do they not have a higher level version, that requires certain adjustments holding aggro on multiple mobs and requires dps to use aoe or something. idk

[Alleo]

I have never done healer hall, but do they say should or could? I agree a healer should DPS, and a tank should pull as much as he and the group can handle. Even semi afk players should be able to handle more then one group at a time. I mean most dungeons are trivial if people pull one group at a time.

Sadly I am not sure how the wording was (and since I am from Germany it might not be correct too) but it probably was not a "must do". Anyway its still kinda telling if the beginners hall do mention DPS as healer. I am not saying that people should DPS as a healer (and I dont want to start that debate again) just pointing out that maybe its just a bit more than simply healing a bit. (And some are not even able to do that..)

Well the recent DPS checks do feel like they are too easy but thats probably because we often over-level them. I mean the bees in the older dungeon or even the demon wall when it was still recent was quite the check. In the end you can carry one bad player through the instance if its a DD. If the healer is really bad you will probably not manage to finish it, the same with a tank. (Honestly for me and my tank friends its quite the rarity to have an Ala Mhigo run without the healer not messing up at at least one point. x))

Also I would never just kick someone for not doing DPS as a healer. If they have high gear and just stand around I will sigh and shake my head but I will go on with that. Just means that they wont get my recommendation at the end.

[Tridus]

Sadly I am not sure how the wording was (and since I am from Germany it might not be correct too) but it probably was not a "must do". Anyway its still kinda telling if the beginners hall do mention DPS as healer. I am not saying that people should DPS as a healer (and I dont want to start that debate again) just pointing out that maybe its just a bit more than simply healing a bit. (And some are not even able to do that..)

Been a while, but IIRC it was "should". It basically came down to if there's no healing that needs doing, add some DPS. They never tell you that you "must", and they never suggest to prioritize it over healing. They do suggest that standing around doing nothing isn't the best idea, which is pretty reasonable.

Also I would never just kick someone for not doing DPS as a healer. If they have high gear and just stand around I will sigh and shake my head but I will go on with that. Just means that they wont get my recommendation at the end.

I wouldn't either, in roulette. If we're having problems with enrages in Ex and I see it, that's different. I main a healer. While I don't claim to be awesome at DPS myself, I do far better than absolutely nothing. Most fights have plenty of windows to sneak some in without risking anyone's safety.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

In the current state of the game I do not kick healers for not doing damage since from what I have seen nothing in the game outside current high end content reinforce the need for healer DPS.

My word choice might be off, not a native speaker but the point I am trying to make is that if the developers and the community did not differ when it came to standards the issue would be lessen. As it stands poor play is supported by the developers. It is hard for me to explain but here it goes. Hope you understand.

Though I will never kick a healer with the current standards and expectations that the devs seem to be pushing for the same reason I would never try to remove a tank that only does single pulls, or for a dps that spams one skill or never uses aoe in large pulls. Because those are player expectations not developer ones. Hard to explain but that is what I feel is wrong, community and the developers are not on the same page each have a different mindset as to what the expect the baseline for players to be. Though if the devs ever pushed that the they expected healers to always be casting, for tanks to pull as much as the group can handle, and for dps to use their combos and aoe when faced with larger groups. Then yeah I would remove those players since at that point it is simply no longer a personal expectation but one supported also by the devs.

Though as it stands I just go with the flow in DF, and if it annoys me too much I simply leave.

[Moomba33]

I have never done healer hall, but do they say should or could?

I looked it up to check and it does come off more as a suggestion than a must.
Exercise 2: "When you've healed all there is to heal, there may be time to weave in some offensive magicks" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqqxJLsqG4 (around 2:04)
Exercise 3: "Another enemy is threatening your party! You might try attacking this foe if your allies are uninjured" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZO_Czn8ZCI (around 2:19)