Tank dps harrasment

[Dualgunner]

As I have said before this thread was bumped up, no one is going change the mind of anyone regarding this we are all firmly in our camps. You clearly think it will have a negative effect, and I think it may have a positive effect neither of us know what kind of effect such a change would have. Still enjoying the discussion.

It's not really a discussion at this point. "We don't know so we might as well try" and "It may hurt more people than it helps, but as long as 1 person is helped" aren't positions I consider strong.

Does SE really have a neutral stance on parsers, have they not openly said they do not support them, but know players use them, more of a don't ask don't tell sort thing (not sure which interview it was though).

That is their neutral stance, yes. They do not act on parsers outright, neither in support of or against them; they have their official position of no third-party tools.

Following that stance, why should players have to opt-out of something that SE has mentioned they do not support?

Because it's third party, not affiliated in any way with SE.

Just like all third party functions regarding video games from my knowledge they function on an opt-in system not opt-out, please correct me if I am wrong in this statement I do not play many online video games.

WarcraftLogs exists.

As to where if you want the data to be gathered you link your account to the site in question and your data will be gathered. I still do not see why it is a reasonable expectation to place on the everyday player that does not wish for their data to be gathered or categorized to have to create a account on a third party site to hide their logs.

It's not your data. It's data connected to a character you made, sure, but it is not *your* data. It is the uploader's data.

I am of the position it should never be asked of a player to have to create an account on a third party site that has any effect on them whatever so in the base game. Especially if said feature / site is not supported by the first party company.

I get it will have an impact for FFLogs, but I am sure it will not destroy the tool or relationship they currently have.

"Logs open or kick"
"Lol why are your logs closed loser"
In the situations FFLogs would affect you, they will affect you anyway regardless of opt-in or opt-out. I'm opposed to change for the sake of change, and I'm opposed to change because "well it could make life easier maybe for at least one person" disregarding all the possible people who it makes life harder on.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

Nor do I personally feel doing nothing since you personally feel the tools in place are enough or to maintain the status quo since we are unable to determine what effect if any it would have the issue in question, a valid reason to not further look into an issue a strong position either.

Wouldn't a neutral stance be not taking a side either way, and I do recall mentioning they do not support the use of a parser but know of their use. They have a stance do not use them, and if you do don't say anything. Seems far from neutral, though I will agree they are in state of equilibrium, and if they took action towards FFLogs said state would suffer, I do not see how it will impact FFLogs should fail into the equation as to why the assumed mass of players should be expected to create an account on a third party site to hide information. I would not say SE does not have a stance regarding the use of a parser.

Would be interesting to see if SE made their own in-game parser and made it so through your account you can toggle if you wanted you combat data gathered, and if you do toggle this option on your data is not recorded on the in-game parser for anyone. Would people still use FFLogs or would people respect the choice of those to hide their info and simply make open logs are requirement.

Making FFLogs opt-in would also make looking for a group that fits a desired play style easier and minimize the requests from players some would deem as sub-par. For example if a player did not want their fflogs shown and saw the requirement to joining said group was open logs, it stands to reason they would not even bother to try and join said group though we do not know if it will make life harder or easier or what sort of impact it would have. You feel it will make things harder, and I am not sure i could see it go either way, though more so towards making things easier. I agree it would have an the impact, though in my opinion it would be minimal, which is subjective what I view as minimal may not be what you would consider minimal.

Our positions at the core are based around a theoretical situation that neither of us truly know what lasting effect such a change would have, all we can do is talk about it or ignore it.

I do understand FFLogs is a third party site, though I will never understand why people feel it is reasonable to expatiation to place the burden of keeping their numbers hidden on from what I could only assume is the larger mass of players instead of the smaller subset that wish to use the tool. Though maybe those that do not wish to use FFLogs are in the minority, I do not know.

[Dualgunner]

Nor do I personally feel doing nothing to maintain the status quo since we are unable to determine what effect if any it would have the issue in question, a valid reason to not further look into an issue a strong position either.

Fair enough. But if I can prevent even one case of harassment by keeping it opt-out, I say keep it opt-out.

Making FFLogs opt-in would also make looking for a group that fits a desired play style easier and minimize the requests from players some would deem as sub-par. For example if a player did not want their fflogs shown and saw the requirement to joining said group was open logs, it stands to reason they would not even bother to try and join said group though we do not know if it will make life harder or easier or what sort of impact it would have.

If we do not know...why act? It's not the mark of intelligence to just flail randomly because something good might happen.

You feel it will make things harder, and I am not sure i could see it go either way, though more so towards making things easier. I agree it would have an the impact, though in my opinion it would be minimal, which is subjective what I view as minimal may not be what you would consider minimal.

If I can prevent even one person getting harassed, then it's worth it to me to keep FFLogs the way it is. I can't prove that it will but by god, there's that theoretical possibility.

Our positions at the core are based around a theoretical situation that neither of us truly know what lasting effect such a change would have, all we can do is talk about it or ignore it.

And we talked about it. The positions come down to rock hard "If I can prevent even 1 person from getting harassed" on both sides, which is the biggest weakness of your argument. You have no evidence that your suggestion would help; you don't even know if it would hurt more than it helps. Hell, you don't even know if the net number of people harassed would change in any way. The fact that someone can say your words, almost verbatim, and be just as valid in the context of your argument but vastly against your position, is silly.

I do understand FFLogs is a third party site, though I will never understand why people feel it is reasonable to expatiation to place the burden of keeping their numbers hidden on from what I could only assume is the larger mass of players instead of the smaller subset that wish to use the tool. Though maybe those that do not wish to use FFLogs are in the minority, I do not know.

I never understand why a lot of people argue against personal responsibility both in game and on the forums. But there you go.

Wouldn't a neutral stance be not taking a side either way, and I do recall mentioning they do not support the use of a parser but know of their use. They have a stance do not use them, and if you do don't say anything. Seems far from neutral, though I will agree they are in state of equilibrium, and if they took action towards FFLogs said state would suffer, I do not see how it will impact FFLogs should fail into the equation as to why the assumed mass of players should be expected to create an account on a third party site to hide information. I would not say SE does not have a stance regarding the use of a parser.

Their position is against third party tools. Their position on parsers themselves is "Don't ask, don't tell." Which is a neutral position.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

When really comes down to it when someone makes a suggestion without having all data available it is impossible to account to account for every variable or possible outcome. Just as if you feel having FFLogs stay the same will provide a larger benefit then changing and I am of the opposite mindset at the core both of our arguments are based around our own personal perspectives and in practice both of them are silly, but what can you do when neither side the data necessary to really look at the situation as a whole. I was under the impression that their stance was use of a parser for any reason is strictly against their Terms of Service, which is why I was confused to neutral position. So third party tools are against the ToS, but a parser in theory is not even though it is a third party tool technically correct?

While it may seem like personal responsibility issue, it is not like someone is informed of FFLogs when buying FFXIV. So how far does personal responsibility goes when it comes to products you buy. Should the task always be placed on the consumer to be aware of not only how the first party uses the data gathered but fully aware of all third parties use said data. Then keep update with the polices of the third party site to make sure they do not change and make the data public again forcing them to hide said info again. Seems easier to place that burden on the people that already use and frequent site, instead of the other way around.

I will be lying if I said I did not understand where most of you are coming from. It would be interesting to see if SE made their own in-game parser and made it so through your account you can toggle if you wanted your combat data gathered, and if you do toggle this option on your data is not recorded on the in-game parser for anyone. Would people still use FFLogs or would people respect the choice of those to hide their info and simply make open logs are requirement. Sad to say I do think most people would still use FFLogs

[Dualgunner]

When really comes down to it when someone makes a suggestion without having all data available it is impossible to account to account for every variable or possible outcome. Just as if you feel having FFLogs stay the same will provide a larger benefit then changing and I am of the opposite mindset at the core both of our arguments are based around our own personal perspectives and in practice both of them are silly, but what can you do when neither side the data necessary to really look at the situation as a whole.

Which negates any point to this discussion, as at this point we're just talking around each other.

I was under the impression that their stance was use of a parser for any reason is strictly against their Terms of Service, which is why I was confused to neutral position. So third party tools are against the ToS, but a parser in theory is not even though it is a third party tool technically correct?

I would say the fact that they've taken a position beyond their ToS regarding parsers means parsers aren't bound necessarily by the same rules. Word of God > Pre-written ruleset.

While it may seem like personal responsibility issue, it is not like someone is informed of FFLogs when buying FFXIV. So how far does personal responsibility goes when it comes to products you buy.

It is a personal responsibility issue when you learn of the service but don't act on it how you would wish to. It is a personal responsibility issue when you demand the whole service be modified so that you yourself don't have to act.

Should the task always be placed on the consumer to be aware of not only how the first party uses the data gathered but fully aware of all third parties use said data.

Yes. That doesn't mean foreknowledge is something a person needs, but it definitely means that when they find out about it, it is on them to act on that information.

Then keep update with the polices of the third party site to make sure they do not change and make the data public again forcing them to hide said info again. Seems easier to place that burden on the people that already use and frequent site, instead of the other way around.

Has it ever happened that hidden parses have been unhidden?

I will be lying if I said I did not understand where most of you are coming from. It would be interesting to see if SE made their own in-game parser and made it so through your account you can toggle if you wanted you combat data gathered, and if you do toggle this option on your data is not recorded on the in-game parser for anyone.

I see where you're coming from too; I don't believe, however, that your suggestion would change or fix anything for anybody, and would just be wasted manpower at best.

Would people still use FFLogs or would people respect the choice of those to hide their info and simply make open logs are requirement. Sad to say I do think most people would still use FFLogs

I don't think it's sad. I think it's logical to use the source with a more complete data set.

Another disconnect I feel between us is you believe your DPS data is yours. In my opinion, it is not: the data belongs to the uploader. You can log in to have your avatar's name stripped from the data, but the data is still the uploader's. It's just like when you upload a picture on facebook with someone else in it; they have to manually log into a service they may not even have an account in to get their name stripped from the photo, but the photo still belongs to the uploader.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

In the end I still think it would be easier to place that burden on players that already frequent the site, though I do see where you are coming from. As for the hidden logs become unhidden, after we did our push prog runs for of our FC mates some of us went to check on our logs to see how we can improve our play to make up for the fact that we doing prog content down one player use to be two (personal choice), but had to stop since we simply were not skilled enough to push two people through prog content. We notice he was still being recorded, yet the others were not. While we just recently found out you could hide info on FFLogs, I do not know if he did it right or not or if they were unhidden for one reason or another. Though more likely he did not do it right the first time around since the others were still hidden. Nevertheless we will start to check their names more often to make sure we do not run the risk of people looking up a few of our members to mock them.
Though FFLogs can change their polices whenever so who knows what they can and will not do. Though in this case I do think he simply did not do it right the first time around.

Oh I know the data belongs to the uploader, that is why we still use FFLogs despite the situation we have placed ourselves in as a group and FC. FFlogs have helped us greatly improve our play and make it possible to bring our friends along to enjoy as much of the content possible FFXIV has to offer despite their skill level. Not going to pretend to understand how FFLogs categorizes everything, I just do not see how the bottom of the barrel logs prove to be useful to the grand scheme of things, unless said player wishes to improve then being as they opted in they can use the tool to improve. I mean only use I see of being able to see the logs of those players outside of said player wishing to improve, or to scan players before they try to join a group. Though not going to lie I am on the fence when it comes to using a third party site as a means of joining a group, though I get the general idea and purpose behind it. No one wants to waste their time.

Though I guess FFLogs does have a ranking system so by making it opt-in said ranks would shift since I guess it would not factor hidden logs.

[Dualgunner]

-snip-

https://i.imgur.com/n76rdML.png?1
Here's what the character's page will look like when the data is hidden. If it looks like this, you should be good. If not, then he hasn't toggled visibility correctly.

Though FFLogs can change their polices whenever so who knows what they can and will not do.

This is just blatant paranoia, I'm sorry. This logic is too big of a slippery slope to consider.

Oh I know the data belongs to the uploader

Then why were you talking as if the data belonged to the player earlier?

FFlogs have helped us greatly improve our play and make it possible to bring our friends along to enjoy as much of the content possible FFXIV has to offer despite their skill level.

I'm glad.

Not going to pretend to understand how FFLogs categorizes everything, I just do not see how the bottom of the barrel logs prove to be useful to the grand scheme of things, unless said player wishes to improve then being as they opted in they can use the tool to improve.

There's always going to be a bottom of the barrel. If you take, say, the bottom 20% and remove them from the scoreboard, that means a new set of numbers are now the bottom 20%.

I mean only use I see of being able to see the logs of those players outside of said player wishing to improve, or to scan players before they try to join a group.

Balance scanning. With FFLogs we're able to tell how much damage a job on average is able to bring at the drop of a hat. With it we're able to see Black Mage is in desperate need for buffs; we're able to accurately represent that at the moment Summoner is top dog in most content, and have the numbers to support that claim. This data is important in any dialogue we try to have with the developers regarding balance.

Though not going to lie I am on the fence when it comes to using a third party site as a means of joining a group, though I get the general idea and purpose behind it. No one wants to waste their time.

Yes. Your position on the fence is also understandable, but remember you personally don't have to do that.

Though I guess FFLogs does have a ranking system so by making it opt-in said ranks would shift since I guess it would not factor hidden logs.

Though less important than what I said earlier, yes hiding logs would make the ranking a bit weird.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

Was never my intent to make seem like player data is your only more so that data uploaded does record everyone in said group, which for some could been seen as problem, not the fact that a player uploaded their own log which happened to contain data surrounding players as the problem. Was not sure how to word, as I have English is not my strong suit, so at times my word choice leaves much to be desired. My stance is that if it was opt-in people can still upload data just the data uploaded would simply blur or remove data of an unclaimed character. Not that people should not upload logs or try to prevent others form uploading as a means of protecting their parse.

I also would not say it is paranoia, use to help with an anime streaming site (use to upload, and help encode ) and one of the reasons I stopped helping though time being the major one, said site would change their polices as the seasons changed especially around data. Also they changed how you earn points, which could be used to bypass ads and took them away from people due to policy changes. Not going to pretend I understand the legal aspect of said actions, but I personally take polices of any site with a grain of salt.

I get their will always be a bottom, but should that bottom be comprised of players that have no desire ( yet do not know you an hide logs ) or even know about FFLogs? Also regarding your example wouldn't you still be able to come to said conclusion, while it would be a smaller sample size unless many people remove their logs from the site there should still be a wide array of logs of varying skill levels to show that BLM is lagging behind across the board. As I said only way I could see balance scanning not being possible is if not enough people upload logs that contain BLM data. Though in the end I am sure SE also has their own logs that they use to make balance changes.

Snip . . .

I take all polices from all sources with a grain of salt, and while I do not trust SE, I value them more in the sense that they stand to lose more from shady policy changes. That is why I would be more inclined to fully endorse an officially supported parse instead of FFLogs, and say if the SE logs functioned just as FFLogs did now, at the very least people would be informed about them from the start and if they wanted to take part they could and if not they could opt-out as they are creating their account. If people were more aware of what FFLogs were about how you could go about making data hidden I really would not have much issue with it. As it stands only way for a person to know about FFLogs is either to be told either in a positive or negative way, have past experience with a parser, and or hear about through the grape vine youtube, reddit, forums etc. . . so while I do not trust SE per se, I do think that if the had their own logs the info as to what they are and how to not be part of it would be more transparent and no matter how trivial of an effect it would have at the very least the player would have control if the data is shown or not.

Though I do understand that all data is important, I just simply cannot wrap my head around why the player base needs to see names tied to said data. One of the main reasons why I do not upload data from when I pug, since while I may have had a good run, I have no clue how to just upload my numbers and not the rest of the group. So I refrain from doing. While I would have loved to do this with our own group, just was not possible since I can tell you without FFLogs no way in hell would we have figured out how to make better use of our time and play during an encounter. I know it is a weird point. I refrain from upload data from pugs since I am not sure how to go about just uploading my personal numbers, and not sure if I can blur out the names if I upload, and I am also not going to ask everyone in the group if they are cool if I upload the data, just I simply upload data from my groups runs.

I guess I sort of see it as how people blur out names in screen shots regarding chat logs on the forums, I am not sure if they have to do because of the forum policy or out common courtesy. I would say let the same practice be adopted by FFLogs, but that would be unreasonable to expect players to run by everyone in the group they would be okay if they did not blur out their name on the logs. I do not know making it so it is anonymous I think would go a long way. Lol but have no way to prove that.

[Dualgunner]

Was never my intent to make seem like player data is your only more so that data uploaded does record everyone in said group, which for some could been seen as problem, not the fact that a player uploaded their own log which happened to contain data surrounding players as the problem. Was not sure how to word, as I have English is not my strong suit, so at times my word choice leaves much to be desired. My stance is that if it was opt-in people can still upload data just the data uploaded would simply blur or remove data of an unclaimed character. Not that people should not upload logs or try to prevent others form uploading as a means of protecting their parse.

English can be a difficult language. You articulate yourself pretty well to be honest.

I can understand what you want. Hell, they could even just make data anonymous in regards to hidden characters. My issue is that it wouldn't actually affect anything, and just take unnecessary time away from more important things.

I also would not say it is paranoia, use to help with an anime streaming site (use to upload, and help encode ) and one of the reasons I stopped helping though time being the major one, said site would change their polices as the seasons changed especially around data. Also they changed how you earn points, which could be used to bypass ads and took them away from people due to policy changes. Not going to pretend I understand the legal aspect of said actions, but I personally take polices of any site with a grain of salt.

By the same logic, why do you trust Square Enix at all? Their policies can change at any point of any day. For any reason, or no reason. Being afraid of FFLogs policy changes is paranoia, because it's just jumping at the shadows of possibility. Of 'what if'. That's why I say it's a slippery slope, because any service can do this so why trust anything?

I get their will always be a bottom, but should that bottom be comprised of players that have no desire ( yet do not know you an hide logs ) or even know about FFLogs?

Yes. The data is about everyone who's participated in the battles; it's all important.

Also regarding your example wouldn't you still be able to come to said conclusion, while it would be a smaller sample size unless many people remove their logs from the site there should still be a wide array of logs of varying skill levels to show that BLM is lagging behind across the board. As I said only way I could see balance scanning not being possible is if not enough people upload logs that contain BLM data. Though in the end I am sure SE also has their own logs that they use to make balance changes.

I'm not enough of an expert in statistics to properly answer this question, I apologize.

[Darst]

This was very helpful as I was just told I needed help as a Tank, but I've done everything everyone has mentioned to do as a tank. So thanks guys. It sucks that the harrassment is there, but glad to know its not just me