When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

[Shurrikhan]

Regarding Heavy Thrust: I don't care. Even if they consolidated combos, I still think it's a trash ability, have always thought it was a trash ability, and I would not be opposed to it being thrown in the trash where it belongs. Nothing will change my opinion. Just accept the fact we disagree on it and move on. I'm not "enforcing oGCD" stacking, as I already said prior in this post, I was simply pointing out that people are simply asking for combo consolidation based on convenience and then posting it as if it's a fact, that it's convenient for all and that no one will suffer from this, that it will do nothing but good things for everyone's experience, etc. I do not mind people saying, "combo consolidation would be awesome," but I do mind people saying, "combo consolidation is what this game needs, and if you disagree you don't know how to read/don't understand/need to reread this post until you do agree."

Seems like you really took what you could skim-read from my posts and rolled with it.

Fair enough, then. I don't personally define quoting and responding to every word made in reply to me as skimming, but I see now that I should have read an additional page back before entering the conversation.

[Oscura]

Fair enough, then. I don't personally define quoting and responding to every word made in reply to me as skimming, but I see now that I should have read a third page back before entering the conversation.

I more meant skimming as in regards to stuff like combining RoF and BH, since I never implied or mentioned that.

As for the "third page back," pretty much. There's a lot of stuff and it's a pain in the butt to read, I'm surprised anyone besides Reynhart actually replied to me.

[Reynhart]

Theorycrafting to varying results doesn't change the fact that only the greatest result is the correct one. You can argue in circles all day about that one.

Yes, the greatest result is the correct one, but this result covers an entire rotation and not just skills related to one another. And unless your job magically have all of its oGCD having the same CD, you won't keep them synchronized. Besides, we all know how the dev team fares compared to extreme theorycrafter, so the last thing we need is them forcing their rotation on us by fusing some oGCD.

The combining oGCDs was to point out hypocritical it is to immediately assume that it is absolute fact that combos should be consolidated based on what is in reality sheer convenience and desire.

It's not a fact that they should, it's a fact that it wouldn't remove anything from the gameplay, even if MNK would need slightly more adjustements.

I was simply replying to the part of the post that said oGCDs are never used consistently or always in tandem. Stop putting words in my mouth.

The fact that they are used together has nothing to do with the effect they have, but only the CD. Brotherhood and Riddle Of Fire would have the same effect if used separately than together. It's just better for DPS to stack those two effects. WS in combo don't work that way.

[Felis]

How about this combo mechanic?

button 1 + button 2 + button 3 = skill 1
button 1 + button 3 + button 2 = skill 2
button 2 + button 1 + button 3 = skill 3
button 2 + button 3 + button 1 = skill 4
button 3 + button 1 + button 2 = skill 5
button 3 + button 2 + button 1 = skill 6

only 3 buttons, but 6 skills

[Shurrikhan]

I more meant skimming as in regards to stuff like combining RoF and BH, since I never implied or mentioned that.

As for the "third page back," pretty much. There's a lot of stuff and it's a pain in the butt to read, I'm surprised anyone besides Reynhart actually replied to me.

I'm really sorry about misunderstanding the hypothetical there; I definitely misread the flow there. (I like to think that) I'm usually better about making sure I've read an understood the origin of a conversation, but I dropped the ball this time. You're right that I sort of trigger-charged here. I also didn't realize Reinhardt's "mudra-like" example was the sole one sourcing the Form Shift conversation. Sorry.

To just sort of level, here — and feel free to ignore this entirely — my big issue isn't even with what the most obvious areas for consolidation would be as so much as just that I've never seen a worse implementation of a combo system than in XIV (1.8 and onward). Generally, a combo system elsewhere would mean either a single-slot skill that takes place over multiple actions, with or without significant effects at each of those stages (Mist Blade, Gust Blade, Moon Blade; repeat), or individual actions with inherent (not generally specifically granted) synergies (1.x forums gave examples whereby this would be neat to have in pairing with the additional damage types we had back then via something like Puncture starting a Defense-break, Pummel inflating it, Chaos Thrust shattering, Aeroga spreading the broken armor particles, and Aura Pulse then blasting them outward for piercing damage), and yet XIV manages to spend the same amount of slots as the latter system while providing only the singular-each options of the prior — a worst of both worlds, so to speak.

Making sense of that kind of bloat isn't going to be as simple as just making combo consolidation, but I'd like to see XIV move completely from the idea of slots being one-to-one with abilities, regardless of applicability, to one-to-one with applicable abilities, or even decisions. That can of course be done by turning our current combos towards the later, where you don't need Perfect Balance, say, to use your skills in whatever order — there's just usually some nuanced, fluid logic to how they're used and then Perfect Balance allows you to stand atop and laugh at whatever that is for its duration. Were that the case, I would by no means be desperate enough to try to salvage Heavy Thrust, let alone as some sort of window-determiner (it looks more like a dodge-strike like Disembowel, after all), even if I feel that similarly shitty Hot Shot now has a beautifully fitting mechanic (Heat Gauge) it can fit into, and Bard just can't afford to lose anything more from its early, core kit, and that Straight Shot (by any name or animation, as an alternative to Heavy Shot or Generic Filler Shot #1) can be revised to more interestingly provide for that kit, etc., etc.

I'd like to see the most possible depth per button, but I'm not particularly interested in having few or fewer buttons for the sake of having few or fewer buttons. Being able to do everything for combat within 2 full (PC) hotbars is ideal to me, including sprint and potion; beyond that I couldn't care less. I just want not to waste so many slots on non-decisions or grayed-out skills.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Again, I don't understand why you would even consider removing window-driving abilities like Heavy Thrust or Life Surge just to protect grayed out skills, especially when you seem to have an issue with exactly that so long as they're oGCDs instead. Why should, say, CT being a non-skill until after Db be perfectly good and complicating and satisfying, yet Battle Litany be seen as unsatisfying due to lack of presence over time when it actually sees use — and with greater nuance, control, and inherent complexity — 11.1% of the time compared to CT's 9.09% of the time? I'm not intending to protect Battle Litany in saying this — I sure as hell think it could stand some improvement in its presence over time as well, including that most simple matter of maximal uses per minute — but that makes no sense.

By all means, add some vigor to the oGCD toolkit, and make each skill feel more present and impactful, but don't start trashing actual complexity or skill choices just to ensure that no one has the right not to waste their hotbar space on unusable abilities.

I don't know why you continuously argue about complexity and whatnot when it's been said multiple times we aren't arguing that but simply prefer the feeling of pressing different buttons to execute our respective combo. You are, again, conflating oGCDs and GCDs when they function differently. The former I will press significantly less overtime. In fact, looking at my own logs, I'll do a full ten-string combo five times before Battle Litany comes off CD. Therefore, having oGCDs slot into separate abilities isn't the same as consolidating the combos, especially seeing in the latter case I'll be pressing the same button on a consist loop.

As for making the abilities useful outside their combo chains. That doesn't mean the current system is inherently broken.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't know why you continuously argue about complexity and whatnot when it's been said multiple times we aren't arguing that but simply prefer the feeling of pressing different buttons to execute our respective combo.

Regardless, this really wouldn't be an optional feature. Those of us who hate it either have to bloat their keyboard/hotbar space or grudgingly accept. Hence why we don't want it at all.

You and Hyo have each said that because the system, if implemented, wouldn't really be an "option" and would therefore result it a button-flow you dislike, no one should should have that option. That or you're just saying "I wouldn't like that. No further relevance." To be honest, I really can't tell by now.

But let's just each throw these things out there as if they had no consequent logic or implicit argument:
I do not want to spend 4+ hotkeys on skills I cannot use during any given GCD. I would like an option by which to avoid that. I do not see this option, which would improve my situation, as being significantly detrimental to yours, unless:
(1) The devs, in typical fashion, decided that having solved this one small instance of bloat, and likely in a way that somehow more convoluted than necessary, all other bloat is permissible, and
(2) the devs then proceeded to add bloat in other ways that force you to use whatever bloat mitigation (e.g. weaponskill choice-by-choice consolidation) you can.

Now, I believe that's a valid fear, and why the devs would need near-rabid watch-dogging if something like this were to occur, but you are claiming mutual exclusion — that your right not to suffer periphrial change stands in conflict with anyone else's right to enjoy such options; that cannot help but turn, then, into argument over merit.

As for making the abilities useful outside their combo chains. That doesn't mean the current system is inherently broken.

<Could you clarify this portion? I'm not sure I'm interpreting it correctly.>

:: Again, ideally, I'd like to see shorter oGCD CDs, oGCD stacking only where not limiting the creative uses of potential (if improved upon) creative uses of oGCDs, weaponskills freed from combo constraints and so forth. But I do not care to see buttons spent just for the sake of hitting something else to continue, essentially, the same skill. Make them separable, or let me spend only as many buttons on it as there are choices.

[bswpayton]

To be fair MNK has a current PVE setup where it has multiple branches so there is choice involved (if you ignore 100% optimization anyway, like I kn

but if someone wanted the option then why not let them have it

[Oscura]

it's a fact that it wouldn't remove anything from the gameplay

No, it isn't. Multiple people have gone on the record to say that consolidating combos would hurt their experience or make things less enjoyable or convenient for their experience. Therefore, it would remove, or change something to those people. Do not state your opinion as fact. This is exactly the entire reason I got involved in this thread, posts like this.

I'm really sorry about misunderstanding the hypothetical there; I definitely misread the flow there. (I like to think that) I'm usually better about making sure I've read an understood the origin of a conversation, but I dropped the ball this time. You're right that I sort of trigger-charged here. I also didn't realize Reinhardt's "mudra-like" example was the sole one sourcing the Form Shift conversation. Sorry.

It's fine, most forum posters would be lying if they said they didn't sometimes jump the gun. Regarding the rest of your post, I definitely agree that the combo system itself is poor in FFXIV. I definitely do not think it is impossible to improve or infallible, and if they tried to move on from it entirely I would not be entirely opposed. I can definitely understand your frustrations toward the system itself as a whole, and I definitely am of the mind that something is never perfect, and can always be improved.

[bswpayton]

No, it isn't. Multiple people have gone on the record to say that consolidating combos would hurt their experience or make things less enjoyable or convenient for their experience. Therefore, it would remove, or change something to those people. Do not state your opinion as fact. This is exactly the entire reason I got involved in this thread, posts like this.

this is true for the most part we will ultimately accept what se wants to do , many people wernt happy with the job changes and the gutting of our jobs etc, Id rather have combos combinded than lose more skills that I actually enjoy currently in 4.2. I actually think the very reason its in pvp now is just a tester for pve at some point of course thats just my opinion but i could be.