When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

[HyoMinPark]

Place Broil2 on 1-2-3 and pretend it's a combo and, idk, hurt yourself when you do a mistake. There, problem solved. Now your rotation is obviously 1000% more difficult and engaging.

Missing the point entirely.

I find it more engaging and less boring/mind-numbing to have multiple buttons to press; it has nothing to do with “difficulty”, since I don’t find it particularly difficult to press the amount of buttons we have now. I do not want condensed combos, and neither do a lot of other posters here. It’s fine if they want to make it an optional feature rather than a mandatory one like it is in the new PvP. But make it mandatory, and I doubt I’ll enjoy PvE content where I can do an entire job’s opener/rotation in 3 buttons or less.

[Senn]

I'd be ok with condensed combos.

[Oscura]

If they are smart about it, they can keep the skill bloat way down to a minimum by further leveraging the tier system for skills, by adding new effects through traits or any other variety of methods that don't involve specifically adding X new skills to the jobs every expansion. The only reason these days it's seen as 'necessary' by the population is because that's the meta they're used to seeing. Shiny new skills, flashy new animations, brand new eye candy with new possibilities.... all of which can be accomplished without the need for bloat and without having to further condense the system. They have the technology and I'd rather see them leverage that than blindly add new slot-able skills just because that's what's expected.

It would be great to see entire combos transform after level 70. New animations, new effects, purely based from traits. It would remove the need to add new buttons and still give everyone something new to play with.

Except combos are already linked together, not oGCDs. Fusing the combos will change nothing about how you plan and use them.

Fusing oGCD...like, for example fusing Blood Weapon and Blood Price and only change them according to Grit would prevent you from using one of them, then switching stance, and using the other. It would significantly reduce how you plan your whole rotation.

The most blatant proof of that is that, were you to look at fflogs timeline, having combos on a single button would give you the exact same timeline. Can you say the same about fusing oGCDs ?

The same way that making the "PVP," system for Monk would be an absolute mess, since Perfect Balance is not simply, "mash the final button in your combo chain." My generalization was regarding offensive oGCDs.

Regarding timeline and reduction of "planning rotation," my point was that people are constantly stating "pressing more buttons does not mean more difficulty." Why should we need more than one button for offensive oGCDs then? Because the timeline and the rotation would change? According to most posters here, that's just "fake difficulty," and "pressing buttons in order isn't hard." A rotation is more or less still one-directional just like pressing combos, it's just not spelled out for you on your UI like combos are.

[dinnertime]

Why is it necessary for them to add more weaponskills and abilities?

Then what else will they add? Traits won't be enough to give jobs something new. Also the skills that act as upgrades or replace certain skills are also called weaponskills and abilities.

However, I'm sure they'll also add weaponskills/abilities that can only act individually. We're going to need room for that.

[Jijifli]

Place Broil2 on 1-2-3 and pretend it's a combo and, idk, hurt yourself when you do a mistake. There, problem solved. Now your rotation is obviously 1000% more difficult and engaging.

Since you're probably missing something here...

You're right, it'd not difficult to press 1 2 3 compred to 1 1 1, but with how our minds work, pressing 1 2 3 is more engaging, because things are moving and we're thinking. It'd bore players down to the point where they don't want to bother.

If we DO want to make this about difficulty, this of course doesn't lower the skill ceiling. It only raises the skill floor, because it makes it physically impossibly to spam one part of the combo instead of doing the actual combo. But that also sounds like it'd be Square going, "The playerbase isn't good at doing basic combo's, so we're going to let the game do it for them."

[Malzian]

Then what else will they add? Traits won't be enough to give jobs something new. Also the skills that act as upgrades or replace certain skills are also called weaponskills and abilities.

However, I'm sure they'll also add weaponskills/abilities that can only act individually. We're going to need room for that.

My point is they don't necessarily need to add anything. Once again, the reason that "New Expansion = New Individual Skills" is because that's how it's always been done. When I say they don't need to "add" weaponskills and abilities, I mean they don't have to add any individual, specific skill and can instead find ways to transform older skills in meaningful ways. Increased potency, added effects, new animation, new name for a new tier on a skill that takes the place of a skill you already have from a lower level. Once again, I think there are better ways for them to leverage the changes they've made to the system that can change up the formula without having to inherently increase the actual active skill count.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If F&C procs new NewJump in place of Jump, on the condition that jump is used, you can feel forced to use Jump to have access to NewJump, and perhaps you'd want to save Jump for a little later...but that later might mean you can lose the NewJump proc, if it takes too much time. You could end with suboptimal situation by linking abilities that have no relation whatsoever.

By keeping the combo chain as the only "procs" you change nothing on the current dynamic (Well, except, maybe for MNK), since you never want to use a 2nd or 3rd WS by itself, and you also never need to reset the same combo.

Not necessarily. Jump is currently used after Chaos Thrust. So if this new ability required a full combo, you'd do Chaos Thrust -> Jump -> Wheeling Thrust and new Jump procs either there or after Fang and Claw. An alternative is they don't share the same CD. So if the new oGCD takes over, you use it and Jump is available right away, provided you hadn't already used it. For example purposes...

Blackfire Dive - lvl xx
Delivers an attack with a potency of x
Can only be executed while under the effects of Blackfire

Blackfire (Trait)
Upon executing a full Wheeling Thrust and Fang & Claw combo, Dragonfire Dive will change to Blackfire Dive.

Make it so Dragonfire Dive's CD is unaffected by this change and you've added a new ability that takes the place of another oGCD that would otherwise be on cooldown for 120s; somewhat similar to how Nastrond replaces Geirskogul now. Admittedly, there would likely need to be some adjustments but this is just off the top of my head. There are plenty of alternative they could toy with. The point is it doesn't disrupt the combos but does add a new ability.

[dinnertime]

Once again, I think there are better ways for them to leverage the changes they've made to the system that can change up the formula without having to inherently increase the actual active skill count.

There is, yes, but I doubt they won't stop adding individual weaponskills and abilities either.

[Felis]

Except combos are already linked together, not oGCDs. Fusing the combos will change nothing about how you plan and use them.

So MNK is excluded?
Good ^^

[Shurrikhan]

What stops me? The fact they would inevitably add more abilities, thus taking up my hotbar real estate and forcing me to start mapping abilities to QERTFGZXC all to dumb down the combat even further.

So, adding abilities is bad, because it dumbs down combat.

Having locked out weaponskills, such that 4 keys are required to perform a single smallest divisible viable string of actions, is good, because they complicate combat?

Having oGCDs that are rarely usable is bad, because they waste space.

But having 6+ weaponskills that cannot be used except during every third to fourth GCD is good, because "they're combos"?

Do you not see how ridiculously double-standard this is?

Like I said previously, people bitch and moan over how boring AoE rotations are. Consolidating our base combos essentially makes them into that.

AoE rotations are boring because they have on average only a single spammable skill or indivisible skill sequence (DS-ST), not because it's bound to one button. Putting ST on a separate button from DS did not make DRG combos any more interesting. At most, the added BotD duration later attached to ST allowed for additional Geirskogul use during pure AoE; that's it.[/QUOTE]

If they can make it so Geirskogul and Nastrond share a button dependent on DRG's gauge, they can implement new abilities in other ways.

Yes. And they can fix what problems, as per their own admission of perception when adding Unchained and Inner Release to auto-swapped keys, remain now.

Or how about making our combos more interesting so Vorpal Thrust isn't just filler? There are plenty of better alternatives than spamming one button.

By all means, but that would actually be "fixing what ain't broke". You'd be increasing complexity to the point currently pretended at, rather than removing that pretense and allowing for that complexity elsewhere. Both work just fine, imo. Heck, I'd much rather see the weaponskills remain separate, so long as they actually have a case in which they can be used separately.

Regardless, this really wouldn't be an optional feature. Those of us who hate it either have to [continue to] bloat their keyboard/hotbar space or grudgingly accept. Hence why we don't want it at all.

Edit:

Just for fun, I played around with possible alternatives for adding skills on DRG without needing to take away its combos.

- New Jumps that replace Jump and Spineshatter when procced off Fang & Claw or Wheeling Thrust
- Vorpal Thrust and Disembowel can now activate Chaos Thrust and Full Thrust, respectively, changing their effects
- Remove other redundant abilities like Piercing Talon or Heavy Thrust
- Merge Life Surge's effect into Vorpal Thrust
- Allow long duration oGCDs to have secondary abilities tied into them. Battle Litany sits doing nothing for three minutes. Having it switch to another ability not only saves hotbar space but adds activity to the job

Again, I don't understand why you would even consider removing window-driving abilities like Heavy Thrust or Life Surge just to protect grayed out skills, especially when you seem to have an issue with exactly that so long as they're oGCDs instead. Why should, say, CT being a non-skill until after Db be perfectly good and complicating and satisfying, yet Battle Litany be seen as unsatisfying due to lack of presence over time when it actually sees use — and with greater nuance, control, and inherent complexity — 11.1% of the time compared to CT's 9.09% of the time? I'm not intending to protect Battle Litany in saying this — I sure as hell think it could stand some improvement in its presence over time as well, including that most simple matter of maximal uses per minute — but that makes no sense.

By all means, add some vigor to the oGCD toolkit, and make each skill feel more present and impactful, but don't start trashing actual complexity or skill choices just to ensure that no one has the right not to waste their hotbar space on unusable abilities.