Tanks Letting DPS Die

[hynaku]

Happens a lot to me. They want pull huge groups but when use attack that hits all monsters tanks can't hold all the agro then I die.

[Cynfael]

Mostly because it would make more than a few instanced missions an obscene pain if your damage dealt becomes a pittance.

That, of course, and I don't think people know what they are asking for when they wish for tank and healer damage potential to be decreased. Been there and done that with games where supporting roles are so weak in offense as to be functionally dependent on others to get anything done in a timely manner. No, thank you.

Even in the context of a dungeon I wouldn't want to be purely dependent on the DPS to progress. It's happened many times that the DPS are lagging, disconnected, or just plain bad/not participating, and healer and tank damage made the difference between "tolerable" and "we should disband, because this will take 90 minutes."

[Llugen]

I didn't read any of this thread save for the OP but my take on it is that there is a meaningful balance between accommodating party members and being ridiculous. I'll rapid-fire off a few examples.

-If I'm a BLM/SMN and a tank is pulling mobs one at a time, I'm probably going to pull more and expect them to be able to handle it without "letting them kill me" because my AOE damage is significantly stronger/faster.
-If I'm a tank and I've made a big AOE pull and a DPS is whaling on a single target, I might try to keep it from him for a little bit but if he doesn't realize that AOE damage would be much better suited to the situation then I might just let him keep it (and possibly die) as it brings down our entire party's efficiency.
-It's not a big deal to me as a tank if a monk shoulder tackles into a boss to keep greased and I just have to tomahawk; the keeping of greased is a bigger overall gain than my waiting ~10s for berserk or whatever. This is something that tanks need to step off their pride about.
-On this note, if I'm a Bard and my raging strikes is about to run off I might just dot up a mob that hasn't been pulled yet simply because the tank is about to pull it anyway. Again this is not a moment for tanks to get incredulous about it, this is about maximum damage. When I play tank, I understand this and accommodate accordingly.
-If a Bard accidentally pulls mobs with Foe Requiem I'm not going to punish them for doing their job, so as the tank I'm going to pick up the mobs.
-If I'm on BLM and I'm dangerously close to pulling enmity and the tank is in DPS stance, you bet your bottom I'm going to dump using Lucid Dreaming. It is to my benefit not to get my face eaten and to the tank's benefit to remain in DPS stance.
-If I'm a melee in a dungeon with a ranged and there's an add far away from the boss I'm going to expect the ranged to kill it rather than waste my time walking over to it and walking back and/or gap closing. This being said, I'll still be watching to make sure it happens. Trust but verify.
-If I'm playing ANY job I am going to make sure I am efficiently using my utilities/role pool skills. Tactician for TP starved melee, palisade for tanks for autoattack damage, the list goes on and on. This is the reason we have these skills, to work together.
-If I'm playing healer and someone is consistently dying to the same mechanic I might just leave them dead rather than spend my MP and uptime trying to babysit them. On that note, if you die in a dungeon pull ALWAYS respawn and shortcut to avoid weakness and the downtime from trying to cast raise.
-Believe it or not, if you can take a hit and know that you won't die as a DPS, you should probably just do it if it's a gain. For instance, BLM gets Manaward to protect itself from aoes and such. Use it. This is tender, since you don't really want your healer to be doting on you and therefore losing their own uptime, but within reason.
-If I am on paladin, I am support. I use intervention and cover to protect players and allow them to maximize their uptime/save them. This is why the job has these skills. Clemency is a bit of an exception since it's a GCD, I'll definitely use it in an emergency, but if its something that reasonably can be covered by the healer I won't bother.
-Remember that enmity management is the responsibility of the entire party (this goes hand in hand with the above bullet on Lucid Dreaming on BLM). It is not solely the tank's responsibility to spam enmity combo (and therefore lose significant damage) simply because I won't use diversion/lucid/tactician etc. Make sure your tanks are utilizing provoke+shirk in 8 man content, use smokescreen, elusive jump, shadewalker. We have these tools to maximize our efficiency (damage), so we should use them, EVEN in the duty finder.

All these things are important to keep in mind. Situations are barely as cut and dry as "oh yeah you should always let someone die/always save someone". In my opinion, approach all situations from a perspective of compassion, rather than irritation. If a player isn't doing something you like perhaps there is a reason. Perhaps not. Communicate about it, that will probably help too.

[SeranaEclipse]

Tanks need to stop healing with there cd's, tanks need to put all markers down and are expected to teach everyone the fights if new, tanks need to make sure every one is happy and having a nice day. we have to pull small or we get shouted at, we have to pull big or get shouted at. we have to not dps or we get shouted at, we have to dps or we get shouted out. crazy idea here tho! how about everyone else uses there skills and knowledge like we seem to have to? sure there are bad players of every kind but the amount of stress both healers and tanks get because a dps is too lazy to move from an aoe and dies, or decides to use all there big cd's at the start while still pulling mobs into a nice tidy group for them to use there cd's and kill faster then dies because oh surprise we can not hold agro on mobs you are hitting 10ft away while we are mid pull. Tanking and healing really is a job and people wounder why no one wants to do them anymore.

Tank's should not let the dps die if they can help it but not everything is on them or the healer. We each have a role to fulfill but most seem to forget that part and opt on to giving others grief when things go wrong or rather then helpful advice, snarky comments.

[Cynfael]

Tanks need to stop healing with there cd's.

This is a pet peeve of mine when I heal, but I try to give benefit of the doubt to offending tanks unless they are being blatantly absurd with Clemency spam.

From the tank’s perspective, they run with bad healers and die if they don’t self-sustain; then they run with good healers and get major side-eye for backseat healing and wasting their time and MP. I remind myself of this whenever I feel like smacking a DF tank upside the head.

In before someone launches into an explanation of how Clemency can help healers AoE more, because that kind of coordination is not a thing in DF, and healers have oGCD heals for a reason.

[SeranaEclipse]

This is a pet peeve of mine when I heal, but I try to give benefit of the doubt to offending tanks unless they are being blatantly absurd with Clemency spam.

From the tank’s perspective, they run with bad healers and die if they don’t self-sustain; then they run with good healers and get major side-eye for backseat healing and wasting their time and MP. I remind myself of this whenever I feel like smacking a DF tank upside the head.

In before someone launches into an explanation of how Clemency can help healers AoE more, because that kind of coordination is not a thing in DF, and healers have oGCD heals for a reason.

Honestly my luck in DF could fill at least 6 pages on here in the DF thread with bad dps or healers or tanks, so when i pld i tend to top myself off if i see healer dpsing as then they can output more and tbh in a boss fight my mana is worthless unless i holy spam because holding agro doesn't take much with a pld and a provoke, flash/circle rotation. with few rotations i get my mana back anyway lol. one thing that has gotten me some snarky remarks is when i divine veil around 10 seconds before a boss room aoe even if i am full hp it still does its effects so if people could understand that, would be great (The unavoidable's like with seahorse rising tides attack in drowned i think its called? something or other) because it reduces dmg to the party but people do not like that apparently.
Also if a healer is treating me like a practice target in DF i will just heal myself, i have better things to do then be there practice run of a 'Clutch' heal, ain't nothing clutch about me dieing because you wanted to test if you could heal me before the TB went off when i was at 20% hp...
I main War,Pld,Whm,Ast,Nin,Brd so i know most roles well in a sense and i know that if i as a healer have a tank under 50% hp most of the run, if i do not hold agro from the group bar some exceptions like people bursting at the start rather then waiting 5 seconds for me to grab agro or as a dps doing my best to do dmg while avoiding enemy attacks and managing my emnity skills, then i am not doing my role properly.

[Cynfael]

Snip

If your healer is making you feel as if you need to use Clemency during a dungeon boss fight, the least healing-intensive part of any dungeon, they are probably terrible.

As an active (read: DPSing) healer, I don’t expect that a tank self-heal, and it throws me off if they do, because we both end up healing unnecessarily. I prefer that my PLD use their GCDs for attacking and their MP for their Requiescat nuking rotation for single target, but like I said, I can understand that bad experiences make tanks skittish by default.

[Kabooa]

This is a pet peeve of mine when I heal, but I try to give benefit of the doubt to offending tanks unless they are being blatantly absurd with Clemency spam.

From the tank’s perspective, they run with bad healers and die if they don’t self-sustain; then they run with good healers and get major side-eye for backseat healing and wasting their time and MP. I remind myself of this whenever I feel like smacking a DF tank upside the head.

In before someone launches into an explanation of how Clemency can help healers AoE more, because that kind of coordination is not a thing in DF, and healers have oGCD heals for a reason.

But they're helping the healer do more-

Oh.