DPS is the job of DPS.

[Miste]

If you want any additional requirement, like higher ilvl, speedrunning, a specific job, no first-timers, etc...you use the party finder.

No.

Remember I told you before....that is a hypocritical argument because you have expectations again.

You are basically saying everyone is allowed to go into DF and have the expectation to not speedrun, because speedrunners have to use PF according to you.

That's an expectation.

DF is for having ZERO expectations on both sides.

Either everyone can have expectations or no one can. No double standards.

[Paladinleeds]

This is not how majority works, and you can't brush it off when you're dealing with such small groups.

This game does brush it off, and I'll bet money on that it won't change, ever.

As long as you match the Duty Finder expectation, you're in your right...

And if you want to have a no expectations except meeting the ilvl for the duty, and whatever else is fair game, you use the party finder. See how that works. If the majority of the group wants to speedrun, then that's fair game in DF. DF is about helping fill up parties, nothing more. If you expect anything other than a party found for you, use PF. However, if someone is new, and they speak up, most groups in DF are actually accomodating. Instead of demanding "It must be this way", maybe try communicating and asking nicely (this is aimed at the populace that does make ultimatum-like demands, on both sides, not you specifically)? When I've done it, I've found the groups work with me. For example if I say I'm new, the group will be like "Okay, no problem, let's roll with it." - I'm willing to meet the group in the middle, they'll also meet me in the middle. Compromise via communication. But the way I see it, if you're not willing to make a compromise either way, you use PF.

And yes, when I say both sides, I mean both sides. 3 people wanna speedrun, 1 wants a slow run? That one person wanting the slow run can either try and reach a compromise with the 3 players (for example if disability or other factors means they can't handle the speedrun pace), accept it'll be a speedrun, or leave/get kicked. Similarly, 3 people want a slow run, 1 person wants a speedrun? Again, that speedrun desirer can either try and reach a compromise (for example they're a bit short on time and have to leave for work fairly quickly), accept it'll be a slow run, or leave/get kicked.

Way I see it if someone queues into a roulette they should go in with the expectation that they may get a less then ideal run, being a roulette it seems silly that people want to have some control over end result, be it the dungeon or members.

Yep, when I go into a roulette, I go in with an "I'll get what I get" mentality. Whether it's a speedrun or a slow run, I'll take what I get and roll with it. So long as people are respectful. And if for example there's a speedrun and I have a genuine reason I cannot handle speedrun pace (for example I'm not very well geared and I'm new), I'll speak up about it. 9 times out of 10, the group steps down their pace to meet something I can more reasonably achieve. In these DF groups, communication goes a LONG way.

[Reynhart]

Remember I told you before....that is a hypocritical argument because you have expectations again.

You're still twisting things by considering that "no expectation" is an expectation.

I don't "have the expectation to not speedrun", I "don't have the expectation of having to speedrun".

And if you want to have a no expectations except meeting the ilvl for the duty, and whatever else is fair game, you use the party finder.

No, if you only use the Duty Finder, the Duty Finder decide who has the right to join, not you. You don't use a tool that was specifically created to add additionnal requirements for people who stick by the basic requirements of the Futy Finder.

[Awha]

Way I see it if someone queues into a roulette they should go in with the expectation that they may get a less then ideal run, being a roulette it seems silly that people want to have some control over end result, be it the dungeon or members.

Though this goes both ways, if the group you get wants to speed run and you do not just leave, and if the group you get wants to take it slow and you do not, same option applies.

In the end we should not have to kick players, since as players we should go into a roulette with the expectation of getting a random experience, if that random experience does not sit well with you then simply leave the group and reroll, or form your own group that caters to your personal style. Be it a slow or speed run. No one should be berating or belittling another because they are unwilling to cater to your desired play.

Roulette is random, so either deal with the outcome or pay the price ( being sitting in queue again ) and roll again.

[Miste]

You're still twisting things by considering that "no expectation" is an expectation.

I don't "have the expectation to not speedrun", I "don't have the expectation of having to speedrun".

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Do you even understand what you have been saying?

You said that everyone has to adjust to people who want to do slow runs whether that be the majority wants to go slow or only 1/4 of the party wants to go slow doesn't matter, but no one has to adjust to a majority that wants speedruns even if 3/4 of the party wants a speedrun and only one player doesn't.

Why do the players who prefer speedruns have to always adjust to the players who prefer slow runs, but players who prefer slow runs never have to adjust to the players who prefer speedruns?

Do you not see what I am pointing out here?

This double standard in itself is an expectation. You expect to always have everyone adjust to your play style if you prefer slow runs, and you also expect all speedrunners to adjust to your slow run even if it is 3 v 1 like my example about you being on tank, remember you answered me:

I'll explain to them why I won't do a speedrun, and if they don't understand, they'll have to deal with it or make a team with additionnal requirement.

You have an expectation that they just "have to deal with it" and you are basically saying "you have to adjust to my play style so too bad you can't do anything about it because kicking me is wrong", but they in turn cannot say anything like that to you. Why are you allowed to force your play style on them, but if they refuse or try to force their play style on you they are somehow in the wrong while you remain innocent?

[Reynhart]

You said that everyone has to adjust to people who want to do slow runs whether that be the majority wants to go slow or only 1/4 of the party wants to go slow doesn't matter, but no one has to adjust to a majority that wants speedruns even if 3/4 of the party wants a speedrun and only one player doesn't.

Because they have a tool to make sure that they're matched with same minded people, specifically created to set additionnal requirements.

This double standard in itself is an expectation.

This is not a double standard, this is a lowest common denominator, because that's how the Duty Finder works. The only restrictions you can set is language. If you set all languages when you queue but then kick someone because he doesn't speak the langage you prefer, you're the one to blame.

You have an expectation that they just "have to deal with it"

No, I have the Duty Finder saying "They have the right to be there by my standards, so deal with it". And, like I said, it also applies to me if I'm the one asking for higher requirements, so again, no "double standard".

[Awha]

Snip . . .

You are missing the point, the standard is that a roulette is random, so you can either get a speed run group or a slower paced one. That is the expatiation all players should have when it comes to roulette queues it is random. If you happen to get a group of players that match your play style be whatever it is awesome, if you do not you have a few choices, either request if it would the group would be willing to go with your desired play style, if they agree great if not, you have two other options stick it out, or leave and spin again so to speak. In a roulette you can not alter the outcome you either have the option of taking what you got, or rolling again.

If players went into roulette queue with the expatiation that you may not get your ideal setup, players would not have to kick other players. At times when I queue and say I get a run that I cannot speed run as a tank due to gear, if the group is not okay with a slower paced run, I am not going to hold up the group I will simply leave and wish them a pleasant day. This happened not that long ago, would it have been nice if they worked around me? Sure, but I am not going to force them.

[kikix12]

This is not a double standard, this is a lowest common denominator, because that's how the Duty Finder works. The only restrictions you can set is language. If you set all languages when you queue but then kick someone because he doesn't speak the langage you prefer, you're the one to blame.

This is a double standard, because common denominator is a double standard. I could say that it should be the highest common denominator, and how you want to argue against that?! Impossible, cause common denominator have nothing to do with fairness. It is the perfect example of unfairness, but it gives everyone "a chance". Hence why it is used.

The fair way is by majority vote. When it's 2vs2 either one yields, or the party is remade. That is the fair option and how duty finder works.

[Miste]

Because they have a tool to make sure that they're matched with same minded people, specifically created to set additionnal requirements.

Yes, and people who want to always do slow runs also have that same tool to make sure they're matched with same minded people, specifically created to set additional requirements.

You do realize the Duty Finder does not list "slow" or "fast" as a requirement right? So they are equally not an established requirement.in DF. So why do you seem to think "speedrun" is an additional requirement, but "slow run" isn't?

PF is there for anyone who is 100% unwilling to compromise on certain things. That includes people who ALWAYS want slow runs and will never adjust to speedrunners and it also applies to speedrunners who will NEVER adjust to slow down for slower runs. Both sides need to use PF in this case OR they have to accept the fact they may not get the group they want, or that they will have to adjust, or that they may get kicked for their refusal to compromise to a majority.

This is not a double standard, this is a lowest common denominator, because that's how the Duty Finder works. The only restrictions you can set is language. If you set all languages when you queue but then kick someone because he doesn't speak the langage you prefer, you're the one to blame.

Yes, exactly, the only requirements are language and item level. So "slow" or "fast" are not in the requirements either. You are not required by the DF to go fast just as you are not required by the DF to go slow, which means both would be considered additional requirements.

So if you always wanted to speedrun and would never compromise you should use PF, but also if you always wanted to slow run and would never compromise you should also use PF.

No, I have the Duty Finder saying "They have the right to be there by my standards, so deal with it". And, like I said, it also applies to me if I'm the one asking for higher requirements, so again, no "double standard".

So these "higher requirements" are just things you personally pick and choose? Is there something in-game that says what are "higher requirements"? Does the DF explain what is a "higher requirement"?

I've been playing since launch and I don't see where the game outlines what is a "higher requirement" so it seems to me you are just trying to dictate what is considered a "higher requirement" that has to be done in PF only. There is no objectivity to it, you just pick and choose based on subjective opinion. Objectively we need to look at what DF requires and then see what isn't listed.

So again, 3 people want a speedrun and have majority and you admit on tank that if you didn't want to speedrun you would expect them to just "deal with it" and they cannot kick you. Why are you allowed to force them to go slow and they have no choice but to obey you and they cannot force their play style on you otherwise they are in the wrong but you can freely force your play style on them and be innocent of any wrong? (This is a double standard by the way, you are allowed to do something that your opposition isn't allowed to do)


PS. You have had double standards everywhere in your posts, sorry, either you just don't want to accept that or you don't understand what a double standard is.

[Lilseph]

the standard is that a roulette is random, so you can either get a speed run group or a slower paced one. That is the expatiation all players should have when it comes to roulette queues it is random.

This.

I just don't get why people "have to deal with it". What's the reasoning behind this "people should adapt to my standards but I won't adapt to theirs" statement? It's not a rethorical question, I want a legit answer. The expectation shouldn't be "the worst possible situation" but the possibility of facing both of them and adapt accordingly. As mentioned above, you have the right to kick the odd-ball or just leave if the group doesn't meet your standards. Or adapt. The later is the one that makes you a better player overall, in my opinion.