DPS is the job of DPS.

[Squintina]

And, to counter the point about ICC10/25. Chances are (although I could be wrong here), you were in a static. Generally speaking, statics here work much the same way as statics do in WoW. Everyone is already on the same page, and knows it's in their best interests to take what's best for the team. But when you head outside of statics, you're likely going to encounter much more conflicting opinions. Why? Because you're not in a group of people who know and understand each other. Not everyone is going to be on the same page. That's where the conflict comes from.

Sometimes it was static, sometimes it was pug, sometime it was half-static half-pug. Depends who actually showed up. We went on no matter what. It didn't matter if 10/10 or 1/10 of the "static" showed up(well more like we had a guild and a calendar and people showed up if they felt like it, that was our "static"), we went on and pugged all the missing slots (same with 25) from global chat. There were plenty of conflicts but it was over loot and DPS numbers from actual DPS.

I guess what I really don't understand is why people care so much. It's just a game.
If it were me my natural way of playing is to heal when I can (I like to top, so there'll be some overheals) and do some light DPS on the side when possible. Maybe not the best DPS rotation, but just something to keep me from daydreaming.

But if a group said "we want you ready to heal at any time, so don't dps", I'd just go "sure" and try to keep myself paying attention somehow
If a group said "we want more dps to make the fight go a bit faster", I'd just go "sure" and try a little harder on the DPS rotation
And if a group asked either one but I didn't feel comfortable for whatever reason, I'd just say so and expect them to understand.

I guess I'm just too mellow to understand this everlasting debate.

But y'all have fun debating!

[Shurrikhan]

...and before someone says something like "those other games made tanks/heal jobs more integral". That might be true, but at some point as people get stronger, everything becomes a little less necessary. I remember having to DPS as heals while doing ICC10/25 in WoW as we all got stronger, and even one boss where I could DPS the entire time while the other healer would heal every 10 seconds and DPS the rest of the time, and no one made a stink either way (even though literally everyone had parser addons), same with choosing between 2 tanks that could both hold aggro and both knew the fights and picking the one that had the higher dps and telling the other one he could only join on his DPS spec because his tank spec didn't do enough deeps - answer was usually "ok, one sec".

I think all that might just have something to do with a lesser degree of role fixation, or certainly within the experience of most players playing during that time. Most "who's the best equipped to..." within any particular global was usually a trick question in terms of role.
Nominal physical incoming damage at low expertise: who should take it?
The melee DPS over there!
What, why?
Because he's Arms.
So?
Massive counterattacks.
More than the tank?
Hugely.

Heck, you still had some older style talents that outright encouraged DPS to swap in and take some damage, or tanks to occasionally heal, etc.; they were still primarily just "toolkits", free from oversimplication.

Plus, PvP simply took off both more highly and more openly there, and when strategies aren't reducible to tank-and-spank, resource-exchange, where a bit of DPS here saves required healing there or a bit of tanking here costs additional healing on the enemies' part, is a given. They weren't told "this is your box; squat in it," by the design or the community, so even in progression raids there was just one rule -- do whatever's most effective, given the current and upcoming condition of the group.

[Squintina]

They weren't told "this is your box; squat in it," by the design or the community, so even in progression raids there was just one rule -- do whatever's most effective, given the current and upcoming condition of the group.

Well yeah but wasn't that my point? That there's something wrong with this community to be so focused on such things (to the point that it even occasionally shows up in lower-level dungeons)?

[HoodRat]

Well yeah but wasn't that my point? That there's something wrong with this community to be so focused on such things (to the point that it even occasionally shows up in lower-level dungeons)?

Considering how little it takes to just tank or just heal, I would say no. Just the other day I ran leveling roulette on brd and got brayflox with 3 people who had never been there before. Despite the tank and healer both being new, the healer stood around doing nothing for most of the dungeon because of how little healing is actually required, and that's with the tank constantly losing aggro on trash because they only wanted to hold one mob at a time.

[Tzain]

Considering how little it takes to just tank or just heal, I would say no. Just the other day I ran leveling roulette on brd and got brayflox with 3 people who had never been there before. Despite the tank and healer both being new, the healer stood around doing nothing for most of the dungeon because of how little healing is actually required, and that's with the tank constantly losing aggro on trash because they only wanted to hold one mob at a time.

That's also a function of 'power creep'. I can tell you doing 2.0 content during 2.0 did not allow for people to stand around doing nothing and you were actively avoiding pulling the wandering enemies to avoid being overwhelmed.

[HyoMinPark]

Well yeah but wasn't that my point? That there's something wrong with this community to be so focused on such things (to the point that it even occasionally shows up in lower-level dungeons)?

I have to ask:

Do you find it acceptable for DPS to only auto-attack in lower-level dungeons? What about in leveling dungeons? In Expert dungeons? I’m guessing the answer is no, with a reasoning somewhere along the lines of “They aren’t doing anything, and that’s not acceptable.” This is the closest comparison I can find for healers that insist on “healing only” when the content like dungeons rarely requires more than a heal once every 15-20 seconds and where Regen or a fairy is more than enough in most cases to keep the tank alive.

Do you find it acceptable for DPS to ignore their AOE skills in favor of single-target 1-2-3? I’m guessing, again, probably not, because they’re inherently making runs take longer by neglecting half of their toolkit. Again, this is the logic I apply to healers that refuse to balance healing and DPS, and with tanks that insist on only using their enmity combo and ignoring the other ones they have (PLD’s Goring Blade/Royal Authority, WAR’s Storm’s Eye/Path, DRK’s Souleater combo).

Not trying to sound abrasive or argumentative, but I hope you can see the double standards here.

To those DPS whinning, I want to say something:

Want me to do DPS? Fine. Then GTFO of the crap, do the mechanics like everyone else and use your aggro mitigation tool. I know that you have at least one, don't lie to me. If you do that, I'll have more time and more mana to DPS. And I will do exactly that: Deal damage, because I won't need to heal you.

I am saying that because it is harder to deal damage when the DPS's HP is lowering way faster than the tank's, even with regens on. And you must think that Cure II costs 1,200 MP and a GCD. With 2 casts, that's the same MP as Holy, that can even make your own live easier, since all mobs will be stunned. But if you're always on the verge of the death, my priority will be always keep you alive over do damage. Or do you prefer to tank the floor?

Remember: The same MP that I use to raise you are enough to cast one Holy or 6 Stone IV. And my MP, although much more manageable, is not endless. Therefore, try to not die, ok?

Deal?

I’m sorry, but if you run out of MP from healing and/or DPSing (I do not fault you on running out of MP if you are doing multiple Raises throughout a duty), that is your fault for not managing your MP correctly. Even when you’re having to heal foolish DPS that stand in the bad. Be proactive with Lucid Dreaming/Thin Air/Ewer/Energy Drain/Aetherflow, and even with having to heal foolish DPS you should be fine.

[Shurrikhan]

Well yeah but wasn't that my point? That there's something wrong with this community to be so focused on such things (to the point that it even occasionally shows up in lower-level dungeons)?

There absolutely is. I agree 100% in that regard, and I'd meant for my post to clearly agree with your own. (Clearly I failed.) As for anything outside that agreement, I'm just saying that XIV's game design itself very, very rarely pushes in any direction but that babying tunnel-vision. And it easily could, if it weren't so focused on being barebone or "streamlined", but it's as if they're almost philosophically opposed to allowing for that kind of depth (and make continual adjustments to filter it out, such as complete resistance to damage-broken CC in all content over 50, or the gradual increasing gap between tank and non-tank survivability).

And the funny, or abominable, thing, imo, is just how perfect lower-level dungeons otherwise would be for figuring out just how much one can directly contribute with any given toolkit. It allows people to build up conventions for unstated but understood target order or AoE vs. ST. You can figure out when, how, and why to DoT spread, to CC, to AoE. It actually has some of the few viable places in this game in which single-targeting down 3-4 enemies, one by one, via CC, outpaces AoE once you account for the added healer dps made available. And it given ample opportunity to thin out one's tank stance usage. And yet... "I'm the healer. I heal. That's it." <Proceeds to idle for 9 GCDs.> Learning opportunity wasted.

[Fhaerron]

If have 1 question when I saw the title of this thread.

Why do I have Sword Oath and why do I have GB & RA combos and the only thing they do is deal high damage?

[Reynhart]

Why do I have Sword Oath

To kill things when playing solo and when you're not tanking.

why do I have GB & RA combos and the only thing they do is deal high damage?

Maybe you should have read the first post and not just the title.

[Fhaerron]

To kill things when playing solo and when you're not tanking.

Maybe you should have read the first post and not just the title.

But I do use Sword Oath, Deliverance, remove grit when tanking. And I use 'DPS' melds.

Isn't it a good thing I'm trying my hardest to speed things up?