It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[NephthysVasudan]

My 2 cents on this is simple.
And its not Yoshi P's fault...its the stupid mob (you know who you are).

Tanks are supposed to Tank - and when I say Tank - that means pull aggro - hold aggro - End of discusison.
Healers are supposed to Heal - not #%@#% pull aggro (anyone who does this should be shot)
DPS is to DPS - again...not pull aggro.

Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

DPS'ers should avoid AOE/Damage zones/and DPS - If they can do this much - they will be fine.

Now getting kicked/harassed/yelled at/judged by the oh so ever loving "logs" - you can bet ill be reporting your ass and you will NOT escape the GM's wrath.

Thankfully I've not encountered this aside from a mentor being mouthy and a DPS'er refusing to do his job in a dungeon because the tank didn't pull the way he wanted it.

And I can tell you right now both paid for it.

That said - all I've said are my expectations/opinions in a RANDOM environment.
Key word... RANDOM.

If your in your private party..you do whatever the hell you want.
But I for one play the game as its designed...and i do this for fun.
SE doesn't care about what anyone does unless you inhibit or destroy the experience with your opinionated elitist mindset.

Sadly there are a lot of people who couldn't careless and consequences be damned just wreck peoples days. I call these people "randoms" - and I'm VERY anti-random. Solution is to get your own group and hang out and do the things you need to do.

Hope this helps.

But this is a MOB problem...the community at large. Not SE. People abuse/exploit the system as they see fit. Want to do something about it? Change your attitude and mindset....teach others....share....you just might fix the issue.

PS: There will be situations where someone isn't doing their part - and you end up seeing the "impossible" happen - its called being a damn good player...you adapt..move on. Doesn't excuse people saying "you suck" - you have to be diplomatic about it. Like the Healer tanking cause the tank sucked....it happens. It just goes to show that each job class can do great things.

[Kallera]

If it is the mob's fault, is it not also the devs' fault for making it that way? Isn't it their fault when they said that they would fix the combat system?

[Tridus]

And its not Yoshi P's fault...its the stupid mob (you know who you are).

It's not the lead on the game's fault that the game leaves healers with so much idle time that they fill it with DPS? It's the fault of the "mob" for thinking that spending half of a fight standing around doing nothing while everyone else works to clear the encounter is suboptimal gameplay?

That's an interesting viewpoint.

Tanks are supposed to Tank - and when I say Tank - that means pull aggro - hold aggro - End of discusison.

Oh good, that means I can spam Flash 6 or 7 times then eat popcorn for the rest of the encounter. By your standard, I don't even have to try to mitigate damage. Score!

Healers are supposed to Heal - not #%@#% pull aggro (anyone who does this should be shot)
DPS is to DPS - again...not pull aggro.

Pretty sure nobody advocated in favor of pulling aggro...

Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

Which is pretty much what the "mob" says. I haven't seen a whole lot of people saying that tanks should be putting DPS first, only that they should be trying to do it once they have aggro secured.

Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

... so you're agreeing with the mob?

DPS'ers should avoid AOE/Damage zones/and DPS - If they can do this much - they will be fine.

Hopefully they can do more than that. There's really nothing helpful about me having to hardcast Raise because three other DPS decided to stand in the fire and the Red Mage doesn't think its his job (despite being the best in the game at it).

Now getting kicked/harassed/yelled at/judged by the oh so ever loving "logs" - you can bet ill be reporting your ass and you will NOT escape the GM's wrath.

Thankfully I've not encountered this aside from a mentor being mouthy and a DPS'er refusing to do his job in a dungeon because the tank didn't pull the way he wanted it.

... I'm just confused now. This thread is about if there should be so much healing downtime that healers can spend over half the fight DPSing as a game design issue. What are you talking about?

But I for one play the game as its designed...and i do this for fun.
SE doesn't care about what anyone does unless you inhibit or destroy the experience with your opinionated elitist mindset.

The game as designed says that healers should be DPSing, unless you believe that standing around for up to 83% of the fight doing nothing is "by design", when all those DPS buttons are sitting there waiting to be used.

So you appear to be agreeing with the mob again, although I guess now we're the elitist mob?

But this is a MOB problem...the community at large. Not SE. People abuse/exploit the system as they see fit. Want to do something about it? Change your attitude and mindset....teach others....share....you just might fix the issue.

How is using my abilities the way they're designed to help clear content "abuse"? If SE doesn't want me to cast Stone in raids, they can very easily ensure I don't do that. Instead, they went the opposite route and made it EASIER in Stormblood for me to use it.

What does that tell you?

[Fyce]

Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

I just want to comment on the general idea that "dealing damage for tanks and healer is not mandatory" or that it's simply a secondary thing. (I'm not answering directly to NephthysVasudan because the whole post is a complete mess of contradictions making me impossible to know what "side" is taken here. I'm just quoting for the sake of having a reference.)

Your main objective as a team is to reduce the HP of the enemies you fight to zero. This is you main goal no matter your role. It's your goal as a Tank, a Healer or a DPS. All of you share that same objective. This means that your job as a party member is to do everything you can to reach that goal.
If you do not deal damage as a Tank or a Healer when you can, then you are absolutly not contributing like you should as a party member. You are letting other carry the burden that you could've carried yourself.

And that leads to the second reason why the argument of "it's optional" is completly hollow. If you have the option to contribute but aren't doing it because of subjective reasons in the context of a team effort, it simply means that you are a selfish jerk. You are dragging everyone down, when you could go up. If your own personal agenda is to shoot for the lowest possible level, then you should be playing singleplayer games. No exceptions.

In short: if you can do it, you should do it. It cannot be more simple.

I rarely have ever seen complaints against anyone while running dungeons, so dunno :/

The reason why the complains are on the forums and not directly ingame is simple: when you queue for your daily roulette or whatever, if you get a princess healer doing nothing you'll usually not say anything out of the fear of starting a drama with a "you don't pay my sub!" individual. Besides, if that player is Lv.70 and is still playing like that, it's easy to assume that nothing that you'll say will change anything. So, you suck it up and deal with the fact that you are doing a dungeon with a terrible player. There's also the case where you are simply playing with a newbie. It's just not worth the risk.
Whatever the case, it's faster to get it done that way than starting an argument mid-dungeon and having some votekicks thrown around the place. So, yeah... People ingame are more silent about it because it's the best way to handle it live. It doesn't mean that people agree with princess healers (or tanks, but "princess tanks" deal a minimum of damage without even knowing. They're just not effective at doing it). They just silently endure the pain of having to deal with one.

[miraidensetsu]

snip

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

[Taika]

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

I think it's fairly self evident that if someone wants tanks and healers to contribute in DPS because they think that every party member should do their best for the party, they also want DDs to avoid AoEs, RDMs and SMNs helping with raises when needed, BRDs buffing group DPS with Requiem and so on and so on...

[miraidensetsu]

I think it's fairly self evident that if someone wants tanks and healers to contribute in DPS because they think that every party member should do their best for the party, they also want DDs to avoid AoEs, RDMs and SMNs helping with raises when needed, BRDs buffing group DPS with Requiem and so on and so on...

Not that obvious. Maybe that DPS wants do be carried on the back while healers and tanks does all the job. You never know, since everyone turns a blind eye on poor DPS performance if it's not too obvious.

And DPS contributing with buffs or heals or raises is so rare for me that i make sure to commend any DPS who does that. Is so rare that I even find a good run if both DPS just don't eat crap and do enough damage. But, I never had an static, all my experience on party was from duty finder.

[Shurrikhan]

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

For one, they would be, and such refusals are usually only ever given in response to a much stronger prior refusal -- in these cases, typically, the healer's refusal to DPS or use Lucid Dreaming.

I would LOVE to have the ability to perform additional groupwork as DPS.

Responsibilities at present: Gathering, focusing, emergency peeling, support-function rotations, tracking Healer/Tank CDs only in combination with support-function rotations... and rotating properly. Which all, given how shallow content tends to be and how overtuned tanks are, typically amounts to just... rotating properly.

By all means, bring it on. Let Diversion be an actual diversion. Let Goad goad things (enemies, one would assume) significantly. Let me CC things again. I would enjoy this game hugely more if there was more "cross-role" interaction (non-tunnelvisioned toolkits and community perceptions).

[Fyce]

On the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?

If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"?

In 8300 hours of game time, I have yet to see a SMN/RDM who deliberatly refused to raise because "it's not my job", or a PLD/RDM not using a Clemency or Vercure for the same reason in a clutch situation, or even a DPS who'd say "I won't avoid AoEs because it's not my job". Even using enmity control abilities is argued for optimization way more often than "it's not my job to manage enmity" (but even then, we are talking about being active as much as possible. Taking a single cross skill to press once in a while has nothing to do with the point of sharing team effort when it comes to simply being active as much as possible).

I'm not saying that they don't exist. But the number of these DPS compared to the number of princess healers/tanks is not even close to being comparable.
Your use of "whataboutism" (ie: "What about the others!") completly falls flat. Besides, the behavior of other players doesn't justify yours. Saying "I won't DPS as a healer because one day I saw a SMN who refused to raise!" is absolutly stupid.

[Tridus]

In 8300 hours of game time, I have yet to see a SMN/RDM who deliberatly refused to raise because "it's not my job"

I have. They're outnumbered by the ones that do use it, and the ones that don't use it because they're not used to paying attention to the rest of the party and don't realize someone is dead immediately, but they do exist. I don't lump the "its not my job" and the "I didn't notice someone was dead" people into the same bucket though, because if you only ever play DPS it's honestly pretty easy to not pay much attention to party status. Us healers are watching it like a hawk so it's second nature to just keep doing that when we play RDM.

or a PLD/RDM not using a Clemency or Vercure for the same reason in a clutch situation

I've seen this too, but only once, and it was an RDM. PLD players vary in how often they'll use Clemency if the healers are up, but ones that just refuse if it's that or wipe are virtually unheard of.

or even a DPS who'd say "I won't avoid AoEs because it's not my job".

While nobody says this, I can forgive people who read it into the actions of every DPS who decides that it's more important to finish their cast than it is to get out of the way of the giant death beam.

"it's not my job to manage enmity"

THAT I hear all the time. It's seriously annoying.

There's plenty of bad habits and attitudes to go around amongst all the roles. This "it's my right to be idle!" one happens to be unique to healers, though. Acknowledging that other roles have their own issues doesn't justify healers doing the same.