It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Bah, seems I missed the 'healer dps' debate...

Oh well...

It is not a problem on the direction of the game. It is a problem on the direction of the community. Community is the only responsible of this situation. A community which don't let tank be tanks and healer be healers.

Actually, the meta is based on the design of the game.
It is the game's design that has brought about the dps meta.

And would require the content designers to adjust how they design their content to change that.

...
Your "3-5 seconds of downtime" is a complete lie. People already made several videos of them doing nothing but healing through a dungeon to show how much downtime there is and how few healing spells you actually need to cast.
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I think it was Taika who had a 17% active time run of something as a pure healer? That means 83% of their time spent in that dungeon was inactive.
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Indeed it was Taika.

And I happen to have the quote available.
Just for posterity...

Yesterday I did some testing on how it really is like to only heal in expert roulette, which I think is a good example because it's content probably ran by majority of player base this discussion is relevant to.

I queued to expert roulette as WHM and we got Xelpathol. In addition to me, the party consisted of a WAR who had never tanked the dungeon before (no endgame experience as WAR), a BLM (his Savage job, currently on A11S progression), and a DRG (no endgame experience as DRG). So quite a random party composition with people more or less familiar with their roles in that dungeon.

The WAR pulled as much as he could at the time (not knowing the dungeon as tank he failed this a couple of times) and I would only use my healing abilities. This was the result, my every single heal cast for the whole 21 min dungeon run:

- Regen x24
- Medica II x16
- Asylum x7
- Assize x4
- Cure II x5 (between pulls, not during them)
- Tetra x4

So in addition to Medica II, the only thing I actually had to cast in the whole dungeon was Cure II, which I did a total of 5 times (between pulls, not during them). Everything else was instant cast abilities. I also used Eye for an Eye on tank and sometimes Esuna, and I cast stoneskin on everyone between pulls.

Even with this little use of healing, my overheal was 35,9%, so the actual healing requirements for this dungeon are even lower. I was active 17% of the whole dungeon while the rest of my group members were active 72-77% of the dungeon.

This is a perfect example of the low healing requirements in the game and how it causes a huge activity difference between a healer who doesn't DPS and their group members. On that run I did not contribute nearly as much as my group members, in fact I was using /icam and doing /mandervilledance while they were actually making an effort. If it would have been the tank or a DD only being active 17% of the time and dancing and idling for the rest, they would have been removed from the party, but for me, some people would actually argue I was doing just fine.

I took a video of the whole run and uploaded it in case someone's interested. This is the final boss fight, during which the only things I actually cast were 3 Medica IIs. Other than that, I used Regen (4), Assize (2) and Asylum (2). Here's the direct link to the fight: https://youtu.be/jBgMe5uHPsE?t=17m17s

TLDR: Not DPSing as a healer means you're just being carried by your group members for over 80% of the dungeon time.

[Sylvina]

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

[MoroMurasaki]

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

"I don't like facts that are inconvenient to my narrative, must be untrue despite fflog/video evidence."

C'mon there buddy, I know irrefutable evidence is inconvenient when it's supporting your opposition but to call a perfectly fine example of an experiment by a very respected forum user 'bullshit' is really childish.

Will every expert roulette only require 17% healing? No, but Taika didn't say that, the point was made that this one did. Maybe that Savage prog BLM tipped the scales with great DPS. Maybe the WAR could have been more conservative in his pulls to require even less healing. The point is not that every expert roulette requires 17% healing uptime but rather that if a dungeon can be completed at 17% then it seems insane to argue any healer doesn't have the time to throw in some DPS.

[Taika]

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

I'm showing you mine and the tank's gear at the end of the video if you're interested in checking instead of shouting "BS!" All of the tank's gear was from previous patch tier, and my item level was 249 and the patch was 3.4 so available item level was 270 (with 275 weapon). Tank also had never tanked the dungeon before (and didn't play tank in general).

I found the most interesting thing in this experiment was that I didn't need to cast a single Cure spell during any pulls or boss fights (I only casted them a few times between pulls). I did cast Medica II which was the only cast-time ability I used. My overheal % was quite high (in part because of the Medica IIs), so could probably have gotten by with much less healing too.

[Sebazy]

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

Actually it really isn't.

When there was a huge healer debate on the forums here, I made a habit of recording and uploading pretty much every roulette I did. The old Cleric Stance made it especially easy to work out healing vs DPS uptime and I can confirm that even on particularly rough runs, I never saw my CS uptime drop below 80%, with 85-90% being attainable with a decent group. My active rate averaged around 90% which is still the case today and I feel that very little has changed on this front. Bosses can still almost entirely be healed with regen and oGCDS. I'll willingly admit that I throw a few cure IIs here and there during trash pulls but I've found my best results working those lilies leading into Assize where possible.

Amusingly I did a 2 WHM run on Skalla the other day, on the super large pull leading to The Old One (second boss), over the ~50 seconds it took us to kill that we did: 4 regens, 2 cures, 2 tetras, 2 assizes, oh and 4 Aero IIIs and 17 Holys. That's on arguably the largest most annoying trash pull going in current content.

[akaneakki]

I just ran a 50-60 roulette where: Tank AND healer did more than the MNK. Mnk didn't do his job as dps then. No aoe, didn't keep up demolish on boss fights. Explain to me how the tank never died when the healer did nearly twice as much as the MNK. While the healer did her/his duty as healer while doing a good chunck of damage. Nobody died either, so I need some one of the pro people here to explain to me how this is possible.

[Tint]

[...] I never saw my CS uptime drop below 80%, with 85-90% being attainable with a decent group. My active rate averaged around 90% which is still the case today and I feel that very little has changed on this front. Bosses can still almost entirely be healed with regen and oGCDS. I'll willingly admit that I throw a few cure IIs here and there during trash pulls but I've found my best results working those lilies leading into Assize where possible.

wiiiich brings us back to the original purpose of this topic. not IF healers should be dpsing, since we already have cleared this question years ago, BUT if healers should be dpsing this much.

up to 90% dps uptime on a healer is in my eyes not acceptable. this should not be possible.

healing has turned into a dps role with an annoying utility and most boring rotation. rather than throwing dps skills between your heals, wich feels good and rewarding, you have to stop dpsing to throw a heal, wich causes a negative impact on your dps and doesn't feel rewarding in the slightest.

[NephthysVasudan]

My 2 cents on this is simple.
And its not Yoshi P's fault...its the stupid mob (you know who you are).

Tanks are supposed to Tank - and when I say Tank - that means pull aggro - hold aggro - End of discusison.
Healers are supposed to Heal - not #%@#% pull aggro (anyone who does this should be shot)
DPS is to DPS - again...not pull aggro.

Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

DPS'ers should avoid AOE/Damage zones/and DPS - If they can do this much - they will be fine.

Now getting kicked/harassed/yelled at/judged by the oh so ever loving "logs" - you can bet ill be reporting your ass and you will NOT escape the GM's wrath.

Thankfully I've not encountered this aside from a mentor being mouthy and a DPS'er refusing to do his job in a dungeon because the tank didn't pull the way he wanted it.

And I can tell you right now both paid for it.

That said - all I've said are my expectations/opinions in a RANDOM environment.
Key word... RANDOM.

If your in your private party..you do whatever the hell you want.
But I for one play the game as its designed...and i do this for fun.
SE doesn't care about what anyone does unless you inhibit or destroy the experience with your opinionated elitist mindset.

Sadly there are a lot of people who couldn't careless and consequences be damned just wreck peoples days. I call these people "randoms" - and I'm VERY anti-random. Solution is to get your own group and hang out and do the things you need to do.

Hope this helps.

But this is a MOB problem...the community at large. Not SE. People abuse/exploit the system as they see fit. Want to do something about it? Change your attitude and mindset....teach others....share....you just might fix the issue.

PS: There will be situations where someone isn't doing their part - and you end up seeing the "impossible" happen - its called being a damn good player...you adapt..move on. Doesn't excuse people saying "you suck" - you have to be diplomatic about it. Like the Healer tanking cause the tank sucked....it happens. It just goes to show that each job class can do great things.

[akaneakki]

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

Cool story.

up to 90% dps uptime on a healer is in my eyes not acceptable. this should not be possible..

But it is. That's how the game is designed. You can do savage and both healers squeeze over 2.5k dps on v1s easy, while BOTH tanks are without tank stance. OgCds are pretty powerful. If The tank drops below 50% hp, tetra popped. Before pulls and you know the boss is doing, let's say 2-3 tail slaps on the MT, you use excog from SCH, which heals for over 600 potency when tank goes below 50%. People who say they are ''true'' healers, doesn't even use their toolkit good as they think they are. The irony is big they think they are great healers, yet they can't even use the tools proppely.

[Kazgrel]

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

TL;DR version: “#fakenews”

Only because it serves to blow your agenda out of the water.