It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[Fyce]

Because a player has to be able to quest through the MSQ regardless of starting job. This is how it works in other MMOs, so it's not unreasonable for someone to presume that's how it works in FFXIV.

Now, does FFXIV work a bit differently? Yes. There's very little actual healing demand, which has resulted in an expectation of healer DPS in order for healers to fully contribute to the group. Is it wrong for someone to expect healers to heal? No.

Nobody is saying that healers shouldn't heal. What people are saying is that given how FFXIV is designed, healers shouldn't heal all the time.
If you want to use strawman arguments, at least try to make them harder to debunk.

And, again, it's not a simple "expectaction", it's how the game is designed. You are not only arguing against the people who like the way things are, but you are arguing against the game itself.

Im also aware how it works in the other FF Parts, but that dosnt mean that something that works in an offline game is as good in an mmo.

Not all games are the same. Including MMORPGs. If this one is designed around the fact that you have downtime to use damage spells, then that's how it is. Again, you are trying to make a general rule out of a subjective preference. That's absurd.
Final Fantasy XIV plays like Final Fantasy XIV. Saying "but in some other games healers only heal!" is completly irrelevant. Nobody cares about how it's done in other games. They have no authority to dictate anything, nor do you.

[Naunet]

Nobody is saying that healers shouldn't heal. What people are saying is that given how FFXIV is designed, healers shouldn't heal all the time.
If you want to use strawman arguments, at least try to make them harder to debunk.

And, again, it's not a simple "expectaction", it's how the game is designed. You are not only arguing against the people who like the way things are, but you are arguing against the game itself.

I think I made it pretty clear that I understand that the flaw is caused by the design of the game. You do not need to "explain" that to me. I was pointing out that it isn't unreasonable for people familiar with other MMOs to come to this one thinking that healers... heal. Because that is what they do in other MMOs. You said it was "completely absurd" for players to have some expectation like this, and I pointed out why it is not.

[Enla]

Honestly if they shifted towards a 'healers only heal' meta I don't know if I would still be here. Tree gin of healing (for me) is the adaptation. If you take away half my kit and I'm just a Cure II bot.... Why? I guess I've liked tanking so far, maybe I would switch mains.

But yes, they'd be prying Holy away from me as well. It's one of my favorite abilities in the game. There is little more satisfying than a PLD popping Hallowed at the end of a megapull and getting to throw up Cleric, PoM, Thin Air and just light everything on fire.

In terms of SCH it is certainly the healer I've played the least of this expansion so far. I loved it in HW and for me the Bane nerf just hit me right in the feelings. I appreciate the efforts of the devs with Miasma II but it just doesn't feel as powerful as spreading all those dots at full potency to 10+ enemies to me. It's also less spam-worthy compared to WHM/AST. I think SCH would have a hard time adapting to a pure healer world, they'd likely have to nerf fairies into the ground which would be a real hit to their identity.

I'd probably end up leaving the game as well. Healing is perhaps the only aspect of this game that's truly 'clicked' with me on a play level and I positively /love/ the challenge keeping people healed while DPSing as much as I can provides. It's so much fun.

And yeah, SCH would honestly have to be scrapped if this sort of meta became the norm. The developers already don't know what to do with us and all their attempts to push us towards 'healing' have ended in disaster or a loss of class identity. If I can macro my faerie in such a way that makes the 70 skill all but useless, the skill that's PURELY there for 'oh shit' healing and nothing else, there's a problem.

I think I made it pretty clear that I understand that the flaw is caused by the design of the game. You do not need to "explain" that to me. I was pointing out that it isn't unreasonable for people familiar with other MMOs to come to this one thinking that healers... heal. Because that is what they do in other MMOs. You said it was "completely absurd" for players to have some expectation like this, and I pointed out why it is not.

Except that's not what they've done in any of the other MMO's I've played? I started in GW2 where every class had their own heal and was expected to share the load on top of DPSing. Then I went to LoTRO where even the 'pure' healers were expected to output damage as well. Finally I went to SWTOR where, you guessed it, damage was essential even as a heal spec'd Smuggler/Operative or Consular/Inquisitor. I've literally never played a game where 'pure' healing was part of the meta.

[Naunet]

Except that's not what they've done in any of the other MMO's I've played? I started in GW2 where every class had their own heal and was expected to share the load on top of DPSing. Then I went to LoTRO where even the 'pure' healers were expected to output damage as well. Finally I went to SWTOR where, you guessed it, damage was essential even as a heal spec'd Smuggler/Operative or Consular/Inquisitor. I've literally never played a game where 'pure' healing was part of the meta.

And in the MMOs I play regularly - WoW, Rift, WildStar (GW2 doesn't count as it doesn't really have a trinity system) - healers are not expected to dps. So once again - it's not unusual for someone to come into this particular MMO with that expectation.

You are so dense, even a paid lightsaber from Battlefront II lootboxes wouldn't even scratch you. Because, yes, it seems that I have to explain some things to you, because it's already the third time and you still didn't get it.

Excellent job on both the personal attacks and completely misunderstanding my point.

An addendum that is entirely beside the point I was making, and I will hope that noting such here will make it clear to certain people that again, it is not related to my statements above: The current healer meta is, in my opinion, dull. Periodic bursts of damage that are healed up in one or two GCDs in 8-man content, or damage so low and steady that all I have to do is maintain an aspected benefic on the tank in 4-man content =/= engaging healing content. I main AST because at least I have the addition of managing cards, but even that's just a couple GCDs here and there. The vast majority of my time is spent spamming a single damage nuke and occasionally refreshing a dot. Not exactly exciting.

[Fyce]

Excellent job on both the personal attacks and completely misunderstanding my point.

At least it seems to have worked as you finally understood that the current design is not a flaw just because of your subjective opinion on it.

An addendum that is entirely beside the point I was making, and I will hope that noting such here will make it clear to certain people that again, it is not related to my statements above: The current healer meta is, in my opinion, dull. Periodic bursts of damage that are healed up in one or two GCDs in 8-man content, or damage so low and steady that all I have to do is maintain an aspected benefic on the tank in 4-man content =/= engaging healing content. I main AST because at least I have the addition of managing cards, but even that's just a couple GCDs here and there. The vast majority of my time is spent spamming a single damage nuke and occasionally refreshing a dot. Not exactly exciting.

I understood your point from the very first post you made, which is why I expressed my incomprehension over the fact that you play a game which doesn't fulfill your preferences. You then got triggered for whatever reason and went "I don't need to justify myself to you! REEEEEEE! This game is flawed! Expectations!" (to summarize). And then I had to repeat myself three times while throwing some childish sarcasm at you because nothing else worked.

FFXIV has some similarities with other games, but it's not WoW, it's not Rift, it's not Wildstar. And it never will be. You already know it. You know that asking for such a drastic change is completly ridiculous. Yet, you still made the choice of playing the game and its healer jobs (no, sorry, just AST it seems when it comes to Stormblood) despite the fact that you don't like that system. People won't pity you for playing a game with an aspect you dislike, because you made your own choice of playing it regardless. And the game won't change one of its core design just for a few people like you who can't detach themselves from WoW-clones. In short, I have absolutly no idea what people like you expect when voicing their displeasure in such a way. You're pretty much just venting for the sake of it (edit: nothing wrong with that btw, as long as you present it that way).

---

Now, there's one thing that I have to question you about: what is the most difficult content you've ever done in FFXIV? The way you speak about what you do when healing and your lodestone profile scream that you have absolutly no experience regarding anything past expert roulette.
I hope I'm wrong and that you're posting with an alt or something, because if that's really true, then you just lost all credibility for obvious reasons.

So please tell me you already play the current available content which would fulfill your needs about healing being more focused on... well, healing. (Otherwise I'm clearly being trolled and wasted some time already. If that's the case, well, good job. I completly fell for it.)


__________


@everyone: I want to remind you all that if you are looking for content which focus 100% on healing when you play AST, SCH or WHM, you can already find it in FFXIV. All you have to do, is head to Wolves' den.
You'll also be happy to know that there's a new mode about to hit on thuesday, which is definitly for people who would like some PvE elements instead of strict head-to-head combat.
Yes, it's PvP. But it's still content where you can express your true nature of a "pure healer" without anyone telling you anything about it. In fact, if you are a great "pure healer" you'll actually be praised. How awesome is that.
Fly my pretties, and show the world how you heal.

[Fyce]

Seems like you enjoy to making your opinion absolute.

No, that's what you are doing. "Healers should only heal!". That's just your opinion, and it contradict with how the game is actually designed.

Whatever like i said i never encountered that what you describe, ok maybe it could be sometimes 5-7 seconds who knows i never stoped that time but it whas never long.

Then we are not playing the same game. Or you are only playing with terrible players. Or you simply don't know how to heal properly (which is the most likely since people already shown every time a thread like this shows up).

[...]the time one tank start with babypulls is maybe 1 of 10 ( or 1 o 9 whatever). Usually the tanks i have pull 2 groups at once, sometimes even 3[...]

So? That doesn't prevent good healers from throwing a DoT, using a few Holy while still maintaining their tank alive. And it's not because you can't do it that it's the case for everyone. Besides, your very argument of "3-5 seconds of downtime" is flawed to begin with, as that's all it takes to cast your DoTs and a damage spell. People are just asking you to use these few seconds of downtime instead of waiting for the tank to lose 500 HP before casting a Cure which will give him back 9000.

and if a tank realy starts with babypulls i tell him to pick 2 groups at once.

Double standards. If you don't want people to tell you how to play, then don't tell them either.
You spent you whole time on this thread basically saying to everyone that you'll only do what you want to do, even if the game isn't designed to be played like that. But when a tank wants to do the same thing, you'll tell him what you want him to do? Damn you princess healers. Nothing is too selfish for you, heh?

I would pay to see you play.

I think I made it pretty clear that I understand that the flaw is caused by the design of the game. You do not need to "explain" that to me. I was pointing out that it isn't unreasonable for people familiar with other MMOs to come to this one thinking that healers... heal. Because that is what they do in other MMOs. You said it was "completely absurd" for players to have some expectation like this, and I pointed out why it is not.

It's. Not. A. Flaw.
And again, you implied that FFXIV's healers don't heal. They do. But in FFXIV, they also do other things. What I called completly absurd, is the fact that some people cannot fathom this idea. The idea that a game may ask you to change your habits. That not all games are the same. Heck, are you spitting on MMORPG who deviated from the holy trinity because "they didn't do like the other games"? Again, that's absurd.
You are so dense, even a paid lightsaber from Battlefront II lootboxes wouldn't even scratch you. Because, yes, it seems that I have to explain some things to you, because it's already the third time and you still didn't get it.

[Oscura]

You are so dense, even a paid lightsaber from Battlefront II lootboxes wouldn't even scratch you. Because, yes, it seems that I have to explain some things to you, because it's already the third time and you still didn't get it.

Now this is real savage content.

[Tridus]

I think I made it pretty clear that I understand that the flaw is caused by the design of the game. You do not need to "explain" that to me. I was pointing out that it isn't unreasonable for people familiar with other MMOs to come to this one thinking that healers... heal. Because that is what they do in other MMOs. You said it was "completely absurd" for players to have some expectation like this, and I pointed out why it is not.

This is entirely true, and it's the root of a lot of this. When I came over here from WoW and flipped to healer from BLM... I healed. In fact, I got annoyed at all these CNJ quests demanding I kill stuff because if I wanted to do that I'd be playing BLM (which is far, far better at it). Back when I was playing WoW, the endgame healing design was "you heal", especially if you were a MT healer. It was entirely possible for a tank to go from full to dead in three seconds from standard damage in a lot of fights and you simply had to have heals going out reliably.

It didn't click right away that the game design here is very much not that. That's the expectation a lot of players have when they come in. You see it all the time from new players, and other job players that start healing for the first time. I'd never kick someone for it outside of Ex or Savage because content below that often has people who are still learning, and that's not the way I prefer to handle someone who isn't actively being malicious. They're playing suboptimally, sure. But so was I, and people were nicer to me about it.

If you want to ask if the game should be that way, it's a complex issue that comes down to opinion on what you want the healing role to be. Changing it to be a pure healing focus would draw some people who don't like the DPS focused style, but would also chase off a lot of the healers we have now that do like it. It'd require major changes to how healing skills, incoming damage, encounter design, and even character stats are being done. Healing would be largely unrecognizable from what we have today if you did it.

For the game we have now? Look... the fundamental rule in any group is that everyone should be expected to do their best to help the group succeed. That means you use your kit to the best of your ability. Since each of us has different skill levels, that doesn't mean you need to have 99% uptime while doing a minimum of 2000 DPS as a healer. It does mean you have to try to help, and tossing up DoTs is more helpful than standing around doing nothing. Standing around doing nothing for 20 seconds (entirely doable on O2N as a healer after putting Regen up on the MT) can't in any way be construed as you helping the group. The examples from the other roles are me deciding to tank while doing zero DPS(*), which as a Paladin is entirely doable thanks to the miracle of flash spam. I'll just hit that button a bunch, then stand around doing nothing. The mobs are hitting me so I've done my role requirement, right? The main difference between the tanks and the healers is that absolutely no tank will defend that as acceptable.

*I don't actually do that. I do use Clemency a lot though, which according to some posters here is outside my job description as a tank. Maybe it is, but I prefer to not wipe, and Clemency is pretty helpful in that department.

[Fyce]

It didn't click right away that the game design here is very much not that. That's the expectation a lot of players have when they come in. You see it all the time from new players, and other job players that start healing for the first time. I'd never kick someone for it outside of Ex or Savage because content below that often has people who are still learning, and that's not the way I prefer to handle someone who isn't actively being malicious. They're playing suboptimally, sure. But so was I, and people were nicer to me about it.

Just to make it clear: nobody is arguing about how new players don't play optimally.
What is argued revolves around experienced players who made the deliberate choice not to play how the game was designed, even after having the full knowledge of what should and shouldn't be done. It's also about these players not caring about trying to have a balanced team effort no matter what, simply because of their beliefs. We are talking about selfish individuals who make their own comfort as their number one priority, often at the expense of others.

And since you said "this is entirely true, and it's the root of a lot of this" to someone who thinks that the way FFXIV healers are desined is a "flaw", I am obligated to say it again: no, it's not a flaw. The flaw is inside these people's brain, who refuse to think that a game's take on that aspect might be different than the very few other games they have played. They are simply inept to adapt, and that's the problem. Not the game.

[Tridus]

Just to make it clear: nobody is arguing about how new players don't play optimally.
What is argued revolves around experienced players who made the deliberate choice not to play how the game was designed, even after having the full knowledge of what should and shouldn't be done. It's also about these players not caring about trying to have a balanced team effort no matter what, simply because of their beliefs. We are talking about selfish individuals who make their own comfort as their number one priority, often at the expense of others.

I'm aware. We've been through 100+ pages of this on the healer forum already.

And since you said "this is entirely true, and it's the root of a lot of this" to someone who thinks that the way FFXIV healers are desined is a "flaw", I am obligated to say it again: no, it's not a flaw. The flaw is inside these people's brain, who refuse to think that a game's take on that aspect might be different than the very few other games they have played. They are simply inept to adapt, and that's the problem. Not the game.

Ah, I was replying to the part about it being different in other MMOs specifically, not that it's a flaw. Sorry the confusion.