Can we get entry ilvl for levelling dungeons already?

[HyoMinPark]

"Tank must get ALL the mobs!"
"Obviously by ALL we mean only the 'dangerous ones'!"

k.

This argument stemmed from someone saying that players needed to “get out of the mindset” that it was the tank’s job to hold aggro on every mob, when that is, in fact, their job. Even mobs where DPS can reliably tank it (such as your Shisui example), ideally the tank should still be the one to pick it up (and I usually see a lot of them try just that). Bringing up instances with mobs that don’t have aggro tables isn’t a decent argument to use against this. Bringing up now-cheeseable fights isn’t a decent argument to use against this.

Just because some instances (Cutter’s Cry) can be cheesed now (I’m fairly certain it wasn’t as cheesable back when it was relevant compared to today) doesn’t subtract from the concept that it is the tank’s job to pick up mobs and hold hate on them: be it boss adds or groups of dungeon mobs. Hall of Novice specifically teaches that, for anyone who has done the Tank HoN. You can’t ignore a part of the job just because sometimes you overgear some instances and can burn through the boss.


Regardless, this isn’t what this thread is about. To get back on topic—I am all for implementing minimum ilvls in leveling dungeons, and adjusting Leveling Roulette in such a way as to prevent people from removing gear (and thereby decreasing their ilvl) to get an easy roulette.

[TheAngelneer]

This argument stemmed from someone saying that players needed to “get out of the mindset” that it was the tank’s job to hold aggro on every mob, when that is, in fact, their job.

Congratulations on going full circle! This is not a fact, the person that said that is absolutely correct, and for 3 reasons:

i) holding aggro on every mob is impossible;
ii) holding aggro on every mob is not always optimal;
iii) holding aggro on every mob certainly ain't always ideal.

Even mobs where DPS can reliably tank it (such as your Shisui example), ideally the tank should still be the one to pick it up (and I usually see a lot of them try just that).

Trying to get that add is the opposite of ideal. The ideal situation is to keep your DPS uptime on the boss while the rest of the group swiftly disposes of the add, instead of dragging stuff around and potentially making it more difficult for the melee to engage the add.

Bringing up instances with mobs that don’t have aggro tables isn’t a decent argument to use against this.

Mobs without aggro tables and mobs that aggro on a single target (like the adds on the first boss of Baelsar's Wall or Kugane Castle) are the quintessential proof that holding aggro on all mobs is indeed impossible, and thus not the tank's job.

Just because some instances (Cutter’s Cry) can be cheesed now (I’m fairly certain it wasn’t as cheesable back when it was relevant compared to today) doesn’t subtract from the concept that it is the tank’s job to pick up mobs and hold hate on them: be it boss adds or groups of dungeon mobs. Hall of Novice specifically teaches that, for anyone who has done the Tank HoN. You can’t ignore a part of the job just because sometimes you overgear some instances and can burn through the boss.

Just a question, do you run around grabing all frog adds that spawn on Rabanastre when Mateus poisons the air of the arena? This is just another case where you shouldn't be tanking all the mobs.

Not only they are weak enough to be easilly downed by anyone, but it is also beneficial that the bubbles they spawn to be spread around so both melee and ranged can use them, while reducing the chances people pop them with the line AoEs.

You can spin this anyway you want, it will never be the job of the tanks to hold aggro of ALL the mobs. Most of them? Sure. All? No.

Looks like people really need to get out of this mindset.

[Oscura]

snip

At this point it has nothing to do with a mindset and it seems like you're desperately making a point nobody cares about. Every single person who posted in reply to that post was well aware that you cannot tank "every" mob, but the poster in question was not talking about "every" mob in the literal sense, but instead referring to a majority. It implied that a tank can simply let mobs that are supposed to be tanked run loose, just because. The same way they mentioned that DPS don't exist only to optimize damage which...is exactly what they exist for. Stop trying to be coy and act as if people genuinely meant every mob in the game including ones without aggro tables and ones that die too quickly to matter.

Maybe cut it out with the pedantic BS and the condescending attitude too, yeah?

[TheAngelneer]

At this point it has nothing to do with a mindset and it seems like you're desperately making a point nobody cares about. Every single person who posted in reply to that post was well aware that you cannot tank "every" mob, but the poster in question was not talking about "every" mob in the literal sense, but instead referring to a majority. It implied that a tank can simply let mobs that are supposed to be tanked run loose, just because. The same way they mentioned that DPS don't exist only to optimize damage which...is exactly what they exist for. Stop trying to be coy and act as if people genuinely meant every mob in the game including ones without aggro tables and ones that die too quickly to matter.

Maybe cut it out with the pedantic BS and the condescending attitude too, yeah?

So...

You just can't be stuck on this whole idea that the tank's job is always to pick up aggro on every mob

Also yes it is a tank's job to have aggro on every mob. I cannot even believe this is up for debate. It's literally what the role was designed to do.

Uh... that is their whole job. If DPS aren't maximizing DPS and tanks are letting aggro fly all over the place, what's the point of either? What else are they supposed to even do?

This is one of the most disappointing things I've ever read. It actually hurts reading this.

It IS the tank’s job to ALWAYS have hate on ALL mobs. That is literally what the job is designed to do: TANK THINGS.

This argument stemmed from someone saying that players needed to “get out of the mindset” that it was the tank’s job to hold aggro on every mob, when that is, in fact, their job. Even mobs where DPS can reliably tank it

Your point again?

[Oscura]

So...Your point again?

If you put me in a party and the tank has i120 gear in a Lv70 dungeon, I will approach it like a 3-player run with no tank and with one of the DPS (in this case the poorly-geared tank) getting hit all the time.

In fact, for some older bosses, it should theoretically be possible for two physical ranged DPS to duo it on synced mode by "bouncing" the boss (continuously alternating who takes aggro so the boss keeps running back and forth instead of actually attacking). Getting PUGs to pull off that kind of strategy is virtually impossible, though I have cleared a few of the more difficult all-DPS runs with PUGs by gaining a few extra seconds of uptime at the start of the fight via bouncing.

Read the entire context of the post people are replying to next time. They were talking even in the context of tankless situations or with undergeared or flat out useless tanks who cannot hold hate at all.

Instead of being nitpicky, we could always get everyone to edit their post to just say "it is their job to always have hate on all mobs when necessary/possible." Just to satisfy you. For the record, by the way, stuff like shisui where the poor melee might lose uptime is not a valid excuse, because optimizing for DPS is not actually part of a tank's job description. A tank's job description is simply to hold hate whenever possible and make sure that DPS and healers take as little single target damage as possible. Arguing about DPS optimization is completely meaningless, because optimization is not the "bare minimum" or bare requirements of the job.

You are just coming off as incredibly whiny, and the argument you are making is for little more than the self satisfaction of telling people they're wrong. You are not trying to teach anyone something important, and you are simply shouting about how people had poor wording and therefore that is inexcusable.

[TheAngelneer]

You are just coming off as incredibly whiny, and the argument you are making is for little more than the self satisfaction of telling people they're wrong. You are not trying to teach anyone something important, and you are simply shouting about how people had poor wording and therefore that is inexcusable.

Yeah, try that one the next time you take a written exam, are asked to write an essay or any other kind of documentation, and see if it sticks.

How dare someone on the internet show that other people on the internet are wrong!

[Oscura]

Yeah, try that one the next time you take a written exam, are asked to write an essay or any other kind of documentation, and see if it sticks.

How dare someone on the internet show that other people on the internet are wrong!

I didn't know you were hired to grade our posts, or that we were being judged. Or that you even have the right to judge. That analogy is completely meaningless. Those people are paid to expect perfection, and people expect them to do so. No one wants some random person they've never met who is completely irrelevant breathing down their neck for mis-wording something. How awfully self-important of you.

It's also not that you told people on the internet they were wrong, it's just that you did it in a miraculously terrible way. Your condescending attitude and constant spite completely take away from whatever message you try to portray.

[TheAngelneer]

I didn't know you were hired to grade our posts

You are quite right, I should contact SE and ask why it is taking so long for them to mail me my gil.

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah, try that one the next time you take a written exam, are asked to write an essay or any other kind of documentation, and see if it sticks.

How dare someone on the internet show that other people on the internet are wrong!

This is a discussion forum. Not a written exam.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Yeah, try that one the next time you take a written exam, are asked to write an essay or any other kind of documentation, and see if it sticks.

How dare someone on the internet show that other people on the internet are wrong!

Quick, everyone go through that person's posts and make sure there are no grammatical, logical, or contextual errors in any of them.