Interview with xenosys-vex

[DaulBan]

Raid mitigation from tanks for balance is a red herring.

I know, that's why I was saying that Paladin raid mitigation is only relevant if and only if the survival check requires it.

[Aana]

I know, that's why I was saying that Paladin raid mitigation is only relevant if and only if the survival check requires it.

Whoopsie. Must have clicked wrong post for response. Mah bad. Edited to fix.
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"It's not needed to win"

Why do we have any utility at all on tanks then. FFS revert shake it off, get rid of cover/divine veil/passage of arms, make TBN only work on self. Were done here folks, call it a day.

We have it for the same reason ninja has TA and Drg has crit up. It makes jobs different. For DPS jobs though, its much simpler because you have high DPS jobs with low utility (read: party damage buffs) and lower DPS jobs with higher utility (raid DPS). So they are pretty straightforward to balance because you are trading damage for damage, just choosing who does it. You or your party.

Tank 'utility' is largely defensive. You cant apply the same logic of "high utility=low damage=balance". You are trading damage for mitigation and we see how well that goes *cough*tank stance*cough*. Balancing tanks around defensive party utility is utterly futile. If the fights REQUIRE that utility you nix the ones with weaker utility. If the fights DONT require the survival tools then you take the DPS every time.

Its binary pass fail. You have or you don't. The fight needs you or it doesn't. Whatever the fight requires you will bring that version of tank. This entire game has been on the DPS side never needing the mitigation, so balance the tanks DPS. Its the only way to get everyone in the game.

[Mycow8me]

I'm sorry, I don't buy the "we have it to make the classes different" excuse. Your effectively saying Balance tanks around dps and self sustain at this point in which case DRK is still the lowest on the totem pole, also ignore the bonus stuff war and pld has cause its not needed to win.

[Gravton]

I'm sorry, I don't buy the "we have it to make the classes different" excuse. Your effectively saying Balance tanks around dps and self sustain at this point in which case DRK is still the lowest on the totem pole, also ignore the bonus stuff war and pld has cause its not needed to win.

You're completely missing her point. Tank dps should be balanced across all tanks. The trade shouldn't be utility for dps. It's every tanks job to protect the group. So having a job that doesn't offer group mitigation is stupid. If they balanced dps for dps, utility for utility, sustain for sustain, it wouldn't matter what tank you brought. The devs are balancing oranges with apples.

[Mycow8me]

You're completely missing her point. Tank dps should be balanced across all tanks. The trade shouldn't be utility for dps. It's every tanks job to protect the group. So having a job that doesn't offer group mitigation is stupid. If they balanced dps for dps, utility for utility, sustain for sustain, it wouldn't matter what tank you brought. The devs are balancing oranges with apples.

That's not what I got from reading her views at all, what I saw is what I read which literally states they are there to make classes different and balancing utility is "utterly futile" which implies not to even bother with it and only worry about dps.

In balancing the way you describe we are homogenizing the role anyway.

Edit: I'm getting tired of reading situations that only imply mitigation is for lowering damage received. You can effectively save members of your team with it that are not topped off on HP for raid wides. I cannot count how many times I have saved someone with a simple reprisal. At least that skill is on the role list where raid mitigation makes the most sense, you bring it if you want it or in some cases if you feel like you "need" it.

[Aana]

That's not what I got from reading her views at all, what I saw is what I read which literally states they are there to make classes different and balancing utility is "utterly futile" which implies not to even bother with it and only worry about dps.

In balancing the way you describe we are homogenizing the role anyway.

Edit: I'm getting tired of reading situations that only imply mitigation is for lowering damage received. You can effectively save members of your team with it that are not topped off on HP for raid wides. I cannot count how many times I have saved someone with a simple reprisal. At least that skill is on the role list where raid mitigation makes the most sense, you bring it if you want it or in some cases if you feel like you "need" it.

I am simply refuting the position that Xeno (this is a xeno interview thread afterall) and lots of other people often take to balance: ie-

"Balance tanks like this"
Utility
1 TankA
2 TankB
3 Tank C

DPS
1 Tank C
2 Tank B
3 Tank A

BARANCE!!"

Im just saying that's not balance. The game is designed to be cleared even with tank B/C(worst utility combo) and therefore #1 utility tank (A) will not be needed and will do less DPS. Tank A will ALWAYS be the black sheep because DPS is all that actually matters. Even if they swap the game so you really need that defensive utility, then all you do is kick out high DPS no utility tank. There is never any balance that way.

All tanks must be near equal in DPS 1st and foremost. There is no such thing as balancing apples and oranges (DPS and raid mitigation). It works for DPS because 'dps utility' is just raid DPS exchanged for personal DPS. Apples to apples.

[Reynhart]

All tanks must be near equal in DPS 1st and foremost. There is no such thing as balancing apples and oranges (DPS and raid mitigation). It works for DPS because 'dps utility' is just raid DPS exchanged for personal DPS. Apples to apples.

They don't need to be equal in personal DPS. And you mention a solution for that, that their utility is translated as what DPS it makes the raid gain.
The easiest utility is having unique damage buffs (Like Slashing Debuff in 3.x), but it can also apply by lowering healing requirements, thus indirectly increasing healer's DPS.
Both of them just need to be on par with what personal DPS the tank lacks.

Just an example : If Sole Survivor would put a vulnerability debuff on the target, it would make DRK more competitive than it is now without touching its personal DPS.