Interview with xenosys-vex

[DaulBan]

Passage of Arms and Divine Veil isn't going to beat better DPS when it's completely unnecessary mitigation that doesn't change how much healers need to heal.

It does mean that eventually, assuming difficulty creep sets in with Savage, PLD might become more appealing if we run into harsh survival checks. Personally I doubt that we'd run into something quite that difficult, but if they ever introduce a survival check in normal savage like there is with Morn Afah (sp?) in Bahamut Ultimate then Paladin might be a must. Though at that point there's probably something wrong with the fight in the first place... In which case the point may very well be moot.

[Aana]

Did it though? In an expansion where WAR had Storm's Path and DRK had Delirium and Reprisal?

There is a little wrinkle in that theres a 3rd variable. Mnk+pld+war provided more mitigation tools than Drk/War/Nin did in but Mnk's mediocre position as a DPS vs ninja is what forced Drk in for the int buff. People didn't pick Drk over pld for the int debuff. They picked Ninja/Drg over mnks for DPS which caused Drk's int down to become more valuable. Again, it still boiled down to finding the best overall DPS combo and TA on ninja with shade and war slashing helping nin provided more damage than a Mnk+Pld+War even though Mnk+pld provided more survivability.

Drk/Nin/Drg did FAR more damage than Pld/Mnk/(Drg/Nin). The int down aligning with the higher DPS combo was a bonus. But if pld/mnk would have brought that+cover+hallowed+veil+clemency and even mantra. But damage>utility so it didn't happen. TA damage. Shade=tank damage. Drk>Pld damage. War slash=Nin damage. Every synergy just created more damage. No one was talking about missing mantra and divine veil.

The ultimate problem with utility is that content is designed to be beat-able with any (reasonable) party comp. Anything with no duplicates, 2 tanks, 2 heals, 4 deeps(at least 1 melee) is 'supposed' to be able to beat any standard content and savage. That means that war/drk comps are supposed to be able to beat D1-4. You will never REQUIRE a SIO to survive a mechanic because your party comp may not have it. There is nothing in this game (except maybe ultimate which is a unique case anyway) where you need ANY raid mitigation from a tank. You can survive almgast, omega, etc without passage or divine veil because you may not have a pld.

Raid mitigation from tanks for balance is a red herring. Its a distraction. You don't actually need it. Sure its nice to see the parties health drop to 50% after a strong AOE, but it wont matter much in the big picture if you don't have that mitigation and the raid is at 30% life instead.

The lauded tank raid mitigation is just an excessive safety net that the content is intentionally designed to not need to win. You will never NEED raid mitigation from tanks. If you have the option of higher DPS or raid mitigation, you just let the raid hit 30% instead of 50% and enjoy your higher DPS. The only reason people care now is because the highest support tank is also the 2nd highest damage tank. If pld had notably less DPS than Drk no one would bring it.

Balance tank DPS. That's the binary pass/fail check for tank comps.

[DaulBan]

Raid mitigation from tanks for balance is a red herring.

I know, that's why I was saying that Paladin raid mitigation is only relevant if and only if the survival check requires it.

[Aana]

I know, that's why I was saying that Paladin raid mitigation is only relevant if and only if the survival check requires it.

Whoopsie. Must have clicked wrong post for response. Mah bad. Edited to fix.
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"It's not needed to win"

Why do we have any utility at all on tanks then. FFS revert shake it off, get rid of cover/divine veil/passage of arms, make TBN only work on self. Were done here folks, call it a day.

We have it for the same reason ninja has TA and Drg has crit up. It makes jobs different. For DPS jobs though, its much simpler because you have high DPS jobs with low utility (read: party damage buffs) and lower DPS jobs with higher utility (raid DPS). So they are pretty straightforward to balance because you are trading damage for damage, just choosing who does it. You or your party.

Tank 'utility' is largely defensive. You cant apply the same logic of "high utility=low damage=balance". You are trading damage for mitigation and we see how well that goes *cough*tank stance*cough*. Balancing tanks around defensive party utility is utterly futile. If the fights REQUIRE that utility you nix the ones with weaker utility. If the fights DONT require the survival tools then you take the DPS every time.

Its binary pass fail. You have or you don't. The fight needs you or it doesn't. Whatever the fight requires you will bring that version of tank. This entire game has been on the DPS side never needing the mitigation, so balance the tanks DPS. Its the only way to get everyone in the game.

[Mycow8me]

"It's not needed to win"

Why do we have any utility at all on tanks then. FFS revert shake it off, get rid of cover/divine veil/passage of arms, make TBN only work on self. Were done here folks, call it a day.

[Crater]

While I'm definitely of the opinion that tank DPS can be balanced against tank DPS while maintaining fairness and job identity, it's not an inherently wrong idea that you could have one tank that excels in party defence and pays for it with lower DPS capability while still giving all tanks an important and valuable role in the game's meta. The gap in party defense just needs to be really stark (imagine if SiO were taken away from WAR and given to PLD).

That's basically the situation with healers, where WHM/AST is best for progression on easy/recoverable content, WHM/SCH the go-to for very difficult content, and AST/SCH is the speedrun meta.

Not what I'd like for tanks but it's very viable.

[Reynhart]

That's basically the situation with healers, where WHM/AST is best for progression on easy/recoverable content, WHM/SCH the go-to for very difficult content, and AST/SCH is the speedrun meta.

Problem is, this put jobs into specific skill levels, and enforce the idea than you can't do a full career in the same job. It's not really appropriate considering the amount of time you can spend gearing one of them specifically.

For me, the "value" of utility is very simple to express (Much harder to implement, don't take me wrong) : Tank utility is almost always focused on mitigation (Especially since Slashing debuff is everywhere), and what mitigation does is decrease the healing requirement. So, basically, if your mitigation doesn't allow the healer to increase its DPS by what you lack compared to a more aggressive tank, then your mitigation is useless.

[Mycow8me]

I think balancing utility / sustain / dps is very achievable. The problem is the weight DPS has vs the other two. The DPS gap needs to be much smaller while for example utility can be wider. We already see that in DRK vs paladin (one single target utility vs paladins 4). The only problem in that scheme is that DRK is lower in all 3 categories vs the other 2 tanks yet people still take it so we know the current gap of DPS is not a issue, the gap needs to be reversed though with drk being on the higher end of the gap due to its other 2 categories being lower. Of course we could aim for a different category to excel in but that would require more of a rework to dark knight.

Here's my current lineup but feel free to disagree (based off being out of tank stance due to current meta):
DPS: War/Pld/Drk
Sustain: Pld/War/Drk
Utility: Pld/War/Drk


This situation does not get sticky until you add a 4th tank into the mix. This is where you might want a 4th category due to displacement of rankings from the fourth tank. In actual reality if we split utility up into single target utility and party utility you have 4 categories and can do a ranking hierarchy again for balance easily with 4 tanks for something to excel in.

Overall I think balance is achievable with DPS in the mix but its weight vs the other 3 due to current community "no mistakes, higher dps" ideology, phase pushing, and enrage mechanics is much higher than the other 3.

[Mycow8me]

Anna You can acknowledge a dps disparity issue in balancing all you want but I don't really feel any desire to fix said balancing from you. I coulda sworn I got this same feeling from you before in another dark knight thread but it was evident because people found out you only play warrior. I ain't going to go down that path though. I just wonder why I don't sense any desire to fix the problem from you.

Giving all tanks party damage utility would be a hodge podge fix at best if you ask me but I can only make that claim with no proof behind it. At that point people would take the tank with the best party dps utility so they can synergize it with the rest of the DPS anyway. All your left with is sustain and tank dps for balancing.