Black Mage

[Remedi]

we, blm, get removed from such pfs too, cause the leader (dps or tank) wants his/her dps buffed, a rdm and (a bit) smn can buff others, but not the blm -.-'

.. if the leader is a healer, than they want the rdm to do the rezing (or in worst case the smn)

we blm just have to live with being a "greedy" dps (that atm doesnt even do that much dps -.-')

besides, blm are hard to handle in new content (probably the hardest dps in end raids, making us a liability hence we tend to die more till the fight is learnt)

blm NEED a utility (with the amount dps we do) OR more dps with utility (but I suspect its a matter of time, Smn have gotten the spotlight for now, after beeing left behind in 4.0, it will shift again)

You listed example of bad conduct from other players, you could that they are the greedy ones in a way

That aside I don't really think that we die more than other jobs in current content or that is much harder for us, as ppl have stated regarding to the movement department we are at the strongest we've ever been and honestly even Shinryu EX isn't much of a problem, I'll stretch even by saying that even bahamut is very well possible.

That aside we cannot and must not condone wrong behavior on PF, there's nothing in PF that cannot be overcome with most combination of jobs, unless a PF is aiming only for logs ( and even then you'll be more successfull with friends) there is 0 reasons for you to ask a precise group composition aside maybe loot sharing.

This doesn't means we are optimal to the group, it only means that ppl asking for optimal grouop composition in an unoptimazited enviroment is really ridiculous

[zuzu-bq]

But in the end, it’s the players themselves that causes these things to happen as their combined selfishness of fast progression means they seem to gang up on the ones who is the biggest slowdown of said progression.

This is the player's reflecting a game issue though. This is what happens when you have a job to not have anything to bring for too many patches in a row and now we can't even use Apocatastasis as an excuse as sometimes we could in Heavensward. right now we sadly have nothing to justify our spot in the parties because SMN can just do more damage than us without party buff coordination and while RDM damage is low they can raise and bring a damage buff to others (even though embolden is weak, people feel good by having that) and both SMN and RDM can Raise. The most laghable part is when Yoshida said BLM would be great to give MP to healers when we are actually the worst caster to do so.

[Altera]

Just remove Scathe, Freeze, Blizzard 2 and Sleep and give us these spells and utilties and we can be useable again xD
These spells was part of THM/BLM in 1.0 XIV

[EllieShadeflare]

I feel like I keep turning into a broken record the longer I return to this thread but from my experiences with the class, from 2.5 to now, Black Mage's identity once YoshiP fully took the reins was for the class to be a near-virgin level pure DPS... an identity it embraced quite nicely in ARR, an identity it maintained in HW as well as it could and one that Stormblood now kinda devalues.

And yeah, while it's easier to see value in White Mage as a "pure healer" or Paladin as a "pure tank" and balance them as such, a "pure DPS" appears to be an utter nightmare to balance, especially when dealing with classes with utility and support abilities... and nearly everyone BUT Black Mage has support of some kind. Granted, Samurai is pretty close with its semi-selfish "slashing resist down" ability, but it does show a bit of the problem when it came to balancing Black Mage.

YoshiP didn't fully embrace the idea that "because Black Mage can only get support if they use cross role unlike literally every other DPS in the game, this puts us in a very big issue where we lack the ability to actually compare to the other classes in terms of contributions beyond damage... but now that Summoner hits as hard as we do and HIGHER, either Summoner needs to be nerfed, or Black Mage needs to be buffed.

Altera makes an interesting point with both good and bad, and I'll address both sides.

The good is that we know that Scathe, Freeze, Blizzard II and Sleep are useless and should have something done. However, rather than entirely proposing their full removal, I propose a few... uh. Transformations. to make them better.

Scathe: Just a flat 200 potency. No benefits from Astral Fire, and doesn't maintain Umbral Ice. This would make it so that if a player is stuck on the move, it can and will get the job done alongside Thundercloud. That said, Enhanced Scathe should remain, a rare doubling that encourages you to use it whilst you're stuck moving... or grant a chance that upon hit, it triggers Thundercloud, though it'd be a rather high chance, like 50%.

Freeze: Make it Flare potency (so 260) with Flare drop off with a high MP cost. Simple as that. Oh, and no manual targeting. Bind is fine tho.

Blizzard II: This one is tricky because it feels bad, and shouldn't exist. That said, increasing it to 80 potency would allow it to match the base potency of Fire II, giving it a purpose in pre-Blizzard III AOE rotations.

Sleep: ...Okay, you got me. This one shouldn't exist. However, I instead suggest Temper from classic Final Fantasy 1 instead, to grant an extra DPS boost, ala Enochian but without the maintenance. Perhaps a 10% damage increase for 30s and a 90s cooldown? Maybe also give a 5% damage boost to those around you when you use it? I dunno.

The bad is that the abilities she's suggesting to replace Scathe, Freeze, Blizzard II and Sleep with are depreciated abilities that clash with Black Mage both thematically and gameplay wise, from an era where Thaumaturges were HEALERS and Conjurers were Red Mages in all but name and lore. Thaumaturges ever since 1.2 have reverted to the Black Mage identity of "damage" elements, the Fire, the Ice and the Thunder, and abandoning its kinda void mage identity of 1.0. That's probably why they locked up Mumuepo. Gameplay wise, when trying to buff a Pure DPS class, you try to increase their damage or make it easier to inflict damage, not try to mess with the identity to make it "viable". In fact, this is the very issue that Monks are feeling at the moment, but a few people in this very thread are failing to realize the ramifications of what they're doing. Messing with a job's identity for the sake of improving it may work for those who only care about the job's usability, but has a high risk of alienating people who have supported that job since the beginning.

You need to improve the Black Mage on the merits of its DPS, not by giving it utility that may or may not clash with its gameplay style. The only kind of utility the class should have is either its pure power or a self-serving buff that happens to make other DPSes hit harder. And that's it.

[Remedi]

I'm afraid I'll have to say that new spells are usually something they add during an expansion what we need are ttweaks to skills which are more likely to come.
It'll be already a miracle if they'll change the effect of our less used skills asking for completely new skills is too much of a stretch

[EllieShadeflare]

I'm afraid I'll have to say that new spells are usually something they add during an expansion what we need are ttweaks to skills which are more likely to come.
It'll be already a miracle if they'll change the effect of our less used skills asking for completely new skills is too much of a stretch

Considering Scholar got Miasma II, and both ACN jobs got back Sustain... and PvP classes gained new abilities each, I don't think it's as much a stretch as you may think, but I do see your point.

[Remedi]

They got skills they HAD back those were not new skills, there's a huge difference

1.0 skills are completely lost they would've to recreate them from scratch

as for PVP they got skills already in their arsenal they got nothing really new

[Kabooa]

TL;DR: Make Scathe, Freeze and Blizzard II killy, and replace Sleep with a self buff.

I don't see those changes affecting the current status of Freeze and Blizzard 2.

For those two, I'd suggest this.

Blizzard 2: Enemies hit by this spell are inflicted with Shatter. They will take additional damage from the first Damaging spell that hits them, at a reduced rate when that spell is an ally's.

Freeze: Turned into an ability.
Duration: 15 seconds
Cooldown: 60 seconds
Radius: 10y
Effect: Enemies within the area effect are afflicted with Heavy and Shatter for as long as they remain inside.

Black Mages gain a Caster friendly boost as well as a personal damage increase. Blizzard 2 and Freeze both gain a definitive spot in the spell arsenal.

[magnanimousCynic]

My problem is that B2 is a Point-Blank-AoE, so unless you change it to be a targeted AoE you'd be losing uptime running in and out of trash mobs trying to hit them and avoid AoEs.

Not considering the fact that B2 is inferior to F2 in a nearly all PvE situations.

[EllieShadeflare]

I don't see those changes affecting the current status of Freeze and Blizzard 2.

For those two, I'd suggest this.

Blizzard 2: Enemies hit by this spell are inflicted with Shatter. They will take additional damage from the first Damaging spell that hits them, at a reduced rate when that spell is an ally's.

Freeze: Turned into an ability.
Duration: 15 seconds
Cooldown: 60 seconds
Radius: 10y
Effect: Enemies within the area effect are afflicted with Heavy and Shatter for as long as they remain inside.

Black Mages gain a Caster friendly boost as well as a personal damage increase. Blizzard 2 and Freeze both gain a definitive spot in the spell arsenal.

You didn't read the full proposal for the two skills? Freeze would become the Umbral Ice "Fire II/Flare," and would build to Umbral Ice II/III while still providing good AoE coverage. After all, in the ideal situation of using it, Flare would wreck your opportunity of having Umbral Ice III ready for Blizzard IV then Fire III, since you'd be forced to Transpose into UI.

In all fairness however, the Shatter idea sounds nice as a trait for Blizzard II once it gets obsolete, but Bind is already fine for most AoE situations for the two of them. That said, if only Blizzard II had more of a point than--

My problem is that B2 is a Point-Blank-AoE, so unless you change it to be a targeted AoE you'd be losing uptime running in and out of trash mobs trying to hit them and avoid AoEs.

Not considering the fact that you B2 is inferior to F2 in a nearly all PvE situations.

Okay, THIS. All of THIS.