Built-in Parsers

[Taika]

The argument for:
It's useful for true min/max tweaking of DPS and raid progression
it helps find the actual weak links/spots in a group so they can be fixed.

Against: People are jerks and WILL use it to exclude/abuse people if they're not measuring up to their standards (even if they are doing adequately).

AAAAND like many MANY laws and regulations out there, this restriction is in place for those precious few who can't play nicely. ^ This is why we can't have nice things people. Cause people are going to be jerkwads about it. Not many, probably not you. But people are going to.

But people have the right to exclude whomever they want from their group, don't they? And they already do! There already are "high DPS or kick" party finder groups, and people will get kicked if they don't perform to a group's standards - no matter how silly those standards are. All an official parser would change is to make the process transparent: if you get kicked, you will know how you were doing, instead of being left to wonder (if you don't have access to a parser).

What an official parser wouldn't do is allow being a jerk: harassment would still be a reportable offense. So this argument doesn't really make any sense.

[Krotoan]

But people have the right to exclude whomever they want from their group, don't they? And they already do! There already are "high DPS or kick" party finder groups, and people will get kicked if they don't perform to a group's standards - no matter how silly those standards are. All an official parser would change is to make the process transparent: if you get kicked, you will know how you were doing, instead of being left to wonder (if you don't have access to a parser).

What an official parser wouldn't do is allow being a jerk: harassment would still be a reportable offense. So this argument doesn't really make any sense.

True they do, totally.
But what you don't think being a jerk is.. others might get hurt/disheartened by : "your DPS is too low bye" isn't technically harassment, but you can bet your butt there are going to be a kabillion threads about this kind of kick if there ever is an official parse included.

More people don't want it than do. The majority of the playerbase does NOT want people to have tools to tell them exactly how much they are underperforming. This is silly, yes. People are actually trying to be helpful with this , yes. Most people still don't want to hear it.

You all argue this is going to help and we need this tool. Use one, go for it. But there is a price for it since it's not casual friendly: play PC and DO NOT TELL PEOPLE YOU'RE DOING IT UNLESS THEY ARE OK WITH IT.

I understand how useful it will be for you ultimate/savage types. I GET IT. But most of us really don't care or want to hear about it. Making an official one is just going to make insufferable people even worse. Bad enough we have to deal with "YOU GUYS' DPS SUCKS LOL" , with an official one we're going to get "LOL TANK ONLY 200 DPS BELOW NIN!". I doubt that would be actionable by the GM's (god knows they have more important things to pay attention too) so the argument stands: people will use it for worse things than you think and regardless of "rules" will be jerks about it.

Think of all the things that are "against the rules" that continue every day. RMT, spamming, party votekick abuse. Doesn't stop that from happening.

[Taika]

I understand how useful it will be for you ultimate/savage types. I GET IT. But most of us really don't care or want to hear about it.

Which is why it's suggested as an optional feature reserved for only content where it's needed: extremes, savage and ultimate.

She was answering an off-topic question by Dualgunner.

Yeah well I don't think Dualgunner's point was to ask about what that gear was, but how WoW players' experiences from parsing would affect their wishes after moving here.

[Krotoan]

Which is why it's suggested as an optional feature reserved for only content where it's needed: extremes, savage and ultimate.

didn't catch that part. I'll support that. Only available in Savage and higher = +1
Gonna argue like hell if that ever happens and people start asking for it in everything though. Deal?

Edit: Upon further introspection I'll add this: It should be a flag in party search as well. If you don't want to join a party with it enabled you should be able to partyfind one without it on. .. unless that was already mentioned.. if so yeah.. that.

[Taika]

didn't catch that part. I'll support that. Only available in Savage and higher = +1
Gonna argue like hell if that ever happens and people start asking for it in everything though. Deal?

I really think it should be a feature available for premade groups only. Something a party leader could enable or disable, and people could join PF groups based on if they're using one or not as they wish. And it could be set off by default in raid finder when solo queueing. I think people should be allowed to use it in other content too if they wish to do so though (again, only as a premade group where people have joined accepting it will be used).

And you really dont think that the moment it's included, even as a optional tool where it, in your opinion, is "needed" we're gonna start seeing threads wishing it's implemented on a wider scale because someone who, just as a example, wants to improve so they can do Extremes, Savage or Ultimate?

Answered this here too. It should be a feature available for premade groups to use in all content they want to use it in.

Congrats. PF just beame unuseable for anyone not comfortable with a parser, if we follow that line of thinking

You mean people who don't wish to use a parser aren't likely to have as many groups available for them? That may be true, but they're also free to start their own (and people who usually want to use parsers or just don't care either way may join those too just as well). Just like now most Savage and Shinryu party finders are weekly farms: people who haven't cleared yet are unable to join those, but they're always free to start their own learning party (and people who have already cleared commonly join those).

I think it's also important to keep in mind that right now, most if not all of those PF groups are likely to be parsed by at least one person..

[Lazaruz]

Which is why it's suggested as an optional feature reserved for only content where it's needed: extremes, savage and ultimate.

And you really dont think that the moment it's included, even as a optional tool where it, in your opinion, is "needed" we're gonna start seeing threads wishing it's implemented on a wider scale because someone who, just as a example, wants to improve so they can do Extremes, Savage or Ultimate?

I really think it should be a feature available for premade groups only. Something a party leader could enable or disable

Congrats. PF just beame unuseable for anyone not comfortable with a parser, if we follow that line of thinking

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And you really dont think that the moment it's included, even as a optional tool where it, in your opinion, is "needed" we're gonna start seeing threads wishing it's implemented on a wider scale because someone who, just as a example, wants to improve so they can do Extremes, Savage or Ultimate?

Congrats. PF just beame unuseable for anyone not comfortable with a parser, if we follow that line of thinking

No offense, but if you're uncomfortable with parses in Savage, you likely have no business being in it. I know that might sound a bit callous, however this is content intended to push players. One or two people underperforming can be the difference between wiping to enrage all night or getting your clear. Learning parties aren't likely to turn this feature on, so people will have options. It keep places accountability on everyone in content that matters.

[Lazaruz]

No offense, but if you're uncomfortable with parses in Savage, you likely have no business being in it. I know that might sound a bit callous, however this is content intended to push players. One or two people underperforming can be the difference between wiping to enrage all night or getting your clear. Learning parties aren't likely to turn this feature on, so people will have options. It keep places accountability on everyone in content that matters.

No offense, but you COMPLETELY missed my entire point.

Unless you explicitly lock it to Extremes/Savage/Ultimate there's nothing stopping people from turning on parsers for anything else (and history will show that yes, they will. WoW has people parsing in leveling dungeons after all)

And if you limit it to just Extremes/Savage/Ultimate you open up for people to complain about not getting parser acess so they can train and become good enough for Extremes/Savage/Ultimate.

But why am I even bothering. This is has been discussed time and time and time again, but those in favour of having parser software implemented officially both cannot catch the hint that SE has said no, and it's a no they've shown no sign of revoking since unlike those begging for official parsing tools, SE realises the negative effect it's given to have on the community.

Honestly, if you're so desperate to minmax your gameplay, I question why you're even sticking with a game that clearly wasnt designed around it being a necessity (not counting content like Ultimate)

(And yes, if I'm coming across as agressive, I'm sorry, but I'm sick and tired of seeing this topic come up, and it's increasingly annoying the sheer ammount of disrespect is being shown towards the people who dont immediately agree about the need for official parsing tools)

PS. please do explain to me why I should have to be comfortable with something that doesnt have official company support, but was forced on FF14 by a tiny and INCREDIBLY vocal minority of players. Or did you forget that ACT wasnt developed by SE?

[Oscura]

you open up for people to complain about not getting parser acess so they can train and become good enough for Extremes/Savage/Ultimate.

Who cares?
People complain about literally anything. We've had people complain about Ultimate's entire existence, all the way up to garbage like complaining about not being able to play as children. This isn't even an argument.

Edit: Also, you mention disrespect, but the person you replied to showed no disrespect at all to you. You act as if anti-parsers stand against toxicity but your posts seem hostile regardless of whoever you reply to, and it's usually based on the fact they disagree with you. It's hard to empathize with "anti-parsing" when people like you get hostile.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No offense, but you COMPLETELY missed my entire point.

Unless you explicitly lock it to Extremes/Savage/Ultimate there's nothing stopping people from turning on parsers for anything else (and history will show that yes, they will. WoW has people parsing in leveling dungeons after all)

And if you limit it to just Extremes/Savage/Ultimate you open up for people to complain about not getting parser acess so they can train and become good enough for Extremes/Savage/Ultimate.

Actually, you just went on a tangent. Not so much as a page back did the discussion deviate towards restricting a supported parse feature to harder content. If people insist it needs to be implemented universally. So what? You aren't training in a dungeon where you'll spam nothing but AoEs the vast majority of any pull. I wager plenty of pro-parse players will accept that compromise.

But why am I even bothering. This is has been discussed time and time and time again, but those in favour of having parser software implemented officially both cannot catch the hint that SE has said no, and it's a no they've shown no sign of revoking since unlike those begging for official parsing tools, SE realises the negative effect it's given to have on the community.

You know what else the developers have said no to? Improving the housing system, adding a glamour log, removing Grand Company restrictions from PvP and allowing Paladin to block magic. All four topics were continuously mentioned because people are passionate-- with the latter two eventually being changed. The devs aren't infallible. Another reason parses are brought up is due to the constant disingenuous assertions about them. Even the devs are guilty of assuming the absolute worst when most people want parses to hold players accountable and to self-improve. Harassment will always be harassment. Those who abuse parses should be punished. I find it ridiculous you can have a GM pay you a visit for saying "fuck" in say chat but they, somehow, couldn't handle abuse of a supported parse system.

Honestly, if you're so desperate to minmax your gameplay, I question why you're even sticking with a game that clearly wasnt designed around it being a necessity (not counting content like Ultimate)

Because I like this game? Parses aren't inherently necessary in any MMO. They are simply a useful tool that help people improve when used correctly. Funny enough, I see far more examples of "casual" players shifting the blame around yet you look at ACT and guess who's underperforming by a wide margin. Now before you go assuming I mean to encourage parsing across all content, I use that example to dismiss the false belief only raiders or "elitists" harass players about numbers. In this case, said people aren't even using a parse to harass, otherwise they wouldn't speak up.

(And yes, if I'm coming across as agressive, I'm sorry, but I'm sick and tired of seeing this topic come up, and it's increasingly annoying the sheer ammount of disrespect is being shown towards the people who dont immediately agree about the need for official parsing tools)

PS. please do explain to me why I should have to be comfortable with something that doesnt have official company support, but was forced on FF14 by a tiny and INCREDIBLY vocal minority of players. Or did you forget that ACT wasnt developed by SE?

Then stop patronizing me on how parses can't be implemented without destroying the community. If you "literally couldn't care less about what people think," why are you getting hostile and citing respect towards an entirely pragmatic response? Numerous people have entertained the opposing side, myself included. We simply disagree, especially when you bring in arguments like "comfort." Bluntly stated, no one cares unless you're raiding with friends. That doesn't mean the group can't be jovial and friendly, but at the end of the day, people want to clear content. I have nothing to really base a retort around that response because not only is it subjective, it's emotional. Generally speaking, people who dislike their numbers visualized are underperforming otherwise why would they care?

I am also sick of seeing players who underperform than proceed to blame the healer, tank or the party disbands after two pulls because no one can risk saying anything regarding ACT without potentially facing a temp ban. So this topic will never die, just like the listed ones above haven't. You don't have to like it, but it isn't "disrespectful" anymore than incessantly bringing up glamour logs or housing. Neither are necessary features but players believe they'll improve the game. Yes, more people want those than parses, but you can't definitely claim an "INCREDIBLY vocal minority" when not even raiders mention they could be helpful. Regardless, if they were only supported in harder content, then opinions on the subject should only be taken from players who actively partake in said content.

Once again, you don't have to like parses, however they aren't going away. Like I said before, instead of having accountability, we have passive aggressiveness where people just silently kick, disband and re-invite who they like or call you out on Discord where XIV's ToS doesn't apply.