Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

[DotsNnots]

So let me clarify from the 16 pages I just read through…

The opinion of speed runner/end game meta folks doesn’t count because they’re a minority, but then when you feel like someone doesn’t have enough of this similar end game experience you invalidate their opinion as well until they provide proof?

Well apparently my opinion as someone who likes to speed kill/optimize (more on that later) doesn’t matter, but have it anyways. Let’s debunk a few themes from this thread:
-----------------------


“White mage isn’t supposed to have mitigation.” Uh, what, why? Because you’ve dreamed up some identity definitions for the classes on your own, and won’t allow anything other than this ideal to fit? There’s nothing that says WHM can’t have mitigation. They used to have mitigation with stoneskin I and II. The still have single target mitigation with the knock-off-you’re-not-fooling-anyone-with-the-renamed-stoneskin divine benison. There’s no “SCH only shields | WHM only raw heals” definitions built anywhere into the game, and only in passing, in not remotely elaborated upon comments from figure heads like Yoshi P, has it been mentioned. Which, I might add, was royally trashed because the “pure healer” idea frankly doesn’t work.
SCH doesn’t just shield. They have a ton of huge burst AOE healing and mitigation tools. You might not see the potency numbers fly on your screen, because you don’t see the 10% that sacred soil just ate, or the extra healing the co-healer was able to do with fey cov up that’s technically from the SCH because of the buff, but it’s there and I could go on.

I’m also fairly certain OP isn’t requesting a GCD shield like succor or noct aspected helios, so I’m not sure why we’re comparing those. Some long CD oGCD shield that functions similarly to soil or collective unconsciousness I think is what they’re after.

Also, to all the “don’t run double WHM’ comments, have you ever had a dead co-healer (or one just raised with no mana) and desperately needed mitigation to save the prog, but could do nothing? It happens quite often. Think of meteors in ExDad, or pyretic in 11s. Not only is it a bit silly that the healer supposedly “slotted” for prog (which isn’t the case, by the way) doesn’t have a tool to deal with this scenario, but flip it around and if the WHM was dead, both AST and SCH have some big bursty heals or CDs to deal with what a WHM would’ve normally handled (insert ET succor (which is only a 20s CD btw, can we stop throwing it around that it’s so “locked” how often do you need to spam multiple AOE heals in under 20s?? Damage in this game comes in bursts and waves, and is rarely constant) or largesse’d or lightspeed helios spam).

And yes, either an Astro OR a SCH can solo heal through almagest, it’s just not quite as brainless.

---------------------------------


Now let’s talk about WHM’s “place” in the raid scene, since that’s the nitty gritty of what we’re getting into here (vs. something like dungeons).

Would you like proof of WHM being excluded from groups? Head to the reddit recruitment sub, find the total number of posts looking for a healer in the past, I dunno, 30 days and then from those posts count the numbers specifically looking for only AST or SCH vs. including WHM. There’s your numbers, go find them. Feel free to add recruitment posts from discord servers. Oh and don’t forget to check their fflogs and see that they’re often either looking for a SCH because they have an AST, or vice versa, or if they’re willing to take SCH or AST, it’s not usually because they already have a WHM, just that their current healer is willing to flex. Speed running metas are pervasive even within groups who have no business trying to force them. Groups in PFs DO actively exclude WHM (among other classes). Even WhyMaige made a comic about it, obviously I’m not the only one encountering this. No I don’t bother to screenshot PF just to service forum justice for situations I haven’t even imagined happening yet. That’s a ridiculous request.

I had been looking for a group for the past several weeks, as a WHM who also likes to optimize and speedkill, but willing to go with a fun average group too, I’m not picky. The first week I posted as a WHM LFG - 0 hits. The next time where I posted I’d be willing to switch to SCH or AST? 5 responses. I even had groups who were interested in me say they’d be willing to let me stay WHM for a bit, and then the next day fervently push for me to switch and insisted I go spend money on a crafted weapon because I only had a decent weapon on WHM at the time.

--------------------------------

Now as to their “prog spot” let’s talk on 2 points:

1. By no means are they the slotted “prog” healer. Especially with the succor buff (which honestly was probably a result of the impending Ultimate raid), AST/SCH is just as likely as a comp. Actually I’d argue it’s moreso. Why? Because in terms of prog all three healers are relatively well balanced, which means the class that the individual person performs on the best is the one that will have the best performance in prog. And what do people have more practice on because of the “meta” comp? SCH/AST (see next point for “practice” time duration).

2. The “prog” phase doesn’t actually last that long. By saying, “oh WHM is for prog, SCH/AST is for farming/optimizing” you’re basically saying that “oh who has a spot for 2-3weeks? The other [what like five months before 4.2?] goes to the other healers. Especially for 1-3s which most groups have cleared by now. So yay, I’m relevant for a couple of weeks and then get forced into a different role or out of a group (yes it happens).

------------------------------------------

Now lets talk about skills:

I’m not going to apples to apples compare skills like the rest of you folks. (Although frankly I get annoyed that you’re even mentioning WD’s potency without automatically adding in rouse’s effect as well, who the heck uses WD without rouse?). The reality is, you can’t apples to apples compare. SCH is built around pre-planning and placing their tools ahead of time for maximum efficiency. So you can’t compare cure3 spam to ET succor + indom etc because functionally you won’t use those skills at the same place or time. Same thing with trying to compare largesse’d cure3 to insert whatever skill it was being compared to — largesse’s use has to be planned just like SCH skills do, so don’t be silly.

But the reality is, WHM has far fewer functional skills **THAN EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME.** Here’s a handy dandy spreadsheet I made awhile back to compare The skills in the same row aren’t meant to say A = B, just trying to align them by what’s similar. And I didn’t count astro cards individually (also didn’t count the two new ones), but I did count card skills (like redraw), as I felt like this balanced out how to count the useful things, the cards. Even adding in literally meme skills (fluid aura and repose) they still come out the lowest. Also the color coding is just so you can see what is/isn’t a GCD or how long the CD is (was really just me playing around with it at the time).

What does this mean? That WHM literally can’t do as much and doesn’t have nearly as much variation or ability as their co-healers. I’m not saying give them 5 new skills to balance it out - that wouldn’t be balanced of course, but they are missing something. My personal vote is still for raid damage utility over mitigation, but I digress.

---------------------------------

Now let’s get back to the point of the thread and talk about the purpose of mitigation:

The very nature of mitigation requires planning. It needs to be up before a mechanic happens.

So right now, throw out EVERY. SINGLE. COMMENT. mentioning Plenary Indulgence. You can’t use PI unless you proc it, and you can’t proc PI until after damage has happened, which is completely contrary to the whole point of the thread. Having a little extra heal (and please, it’s tiny, no decent WHM builds up 3 stacks in anything, pretty much ever. Especially not during almagest because you’d rip ago) doesn’t stop you from dying at i320 with no vit melds to meteors on ExDad. And there’s no way to build stacks effectively before meteors, because they’d fall off. Or -insert other raid mechanic where you still won’t use it-. I think the only time I SOMETIMES get 3 stacks is d-wave spam in 3s.

Also not one person has said why giving WHM a small long oGCD mitigation skill is a bad thing. I’ve heard “no because they’re not supposed to shield” and “no because I don’t want them to be more OP than my class” but no comments like: “Well it’ll functionally help them in special instances of prog and that’s bad, somehow…” or “I’m a SCH so I can put out a beefy AOE regen, single target regen, big AOE or single target shields, buff the healing potency of the whole group, increase crit on the boss, increase the attack speed of the whole party, put out a pretty bursty raw aoe heal every 30s. But WHM should only be able to 2 of the things I can, raw heals and regens.” or “I’m an dir AST who’s entire skill kit was literally ripped from WHM plus my MAIN GCD heals are more potent than WHM, plus I have the highest potency heal in the game, plus I give everyone various buffs, plus even as dir I can mitigate … but WHM should only raw heal or regen.” lolwut.

[Sebazy]

“White mage isn’t supposed to have mitigation.” Uh, what, why? Because you’ve dreamed up some identity definitions for the classes on your own, and won’t allow anything other than this ideal to fit? There’s nothing that says WHM can’t have mitigation.

Actually I'd say SE doesn't want WHM to have mitigation. Yes we used to have stoneskin, but look back a little further and see how SE have reacted over the years to strategy that have revolved around it. Early T5 required timed Stoneskin+Adlo for the tank to survive death sentence (And a timed Cure II between the DS and infirmity for good measure). Oh hey, WHM proceeded to lose it's % bonus on SS. Remember how quickly the SS2 in combat bug after a raise got stomped out? Whilst Benison is powerful, I can't help but feel that tying it to the Lily mechanic was a deliberate move to make it awkward to rely on rather than an effort to make Lilys seem more valuable.

Groups in PFs DO actively exclude WHM (among other classes).

I can't find a single O4S or Shinryu in PF currently that's excluding WHM and I can't say I've noticed it with any degree of regularity when I've had the pug itch. I've pretty much played WHM exclusively since Omega Savage hit and I've had no issues. Maybe it's an NA thing? /shrug.

One thing I will add here tho, for ARR through to early Gordias I ran with an FC where the leadership formed groups for us, I was clearly known as a WHM 'main' yet ended up on SCH for every single last early progression push I took part in. Did we exclude WHM? Of course not, it was because A) There were never enough SCHs and B) I was always willing to be flexible for the good of the FC. Personally, I still think that shortage of SCHs (and natural Noct ASTs) is still a thing even if it is likely to a lesser degree now.

Rolling over into your point about WHM and speed runs, maybe it's because of the company I keep, but I see highly active WHMs in highly skilled company that have been working hard the last few weeks and are ready and prepped for tomorrow.

What does this mean? That WHM literally can’t do as much and doesn’t have nearly as much variation or ability as their co-healers. I’m not saying give them 5 new skills to balance it out - that wouldn’t be balanced of course, but they are missing something. My personal vote is still for raid damage utility over mitigation, but I digress.

Personally I like WHM's comparative simplicity but I do agree with you here.

(and please, it’s tiny, no decent WHM builds up 3 stacks in anything, pretty much ever. Especially not during almagest because you’d rip ago)

Anything is possible with good Shroud timing it seems <3 Fun fact: Despite my Cure III addiction, the other WHM was pulling more hate than me on the occasions where we overstepped the line (despite me healing faster and harder for the most part). Fun Fact 2: I didn't screenshot it, but we got 4 or 5 first kills on that linked run. Gogo late and hideously overgeared progression =(

Also not one person has said why giving WHM a small long oGCD mitigation skill is a bad thing.

I thought I did a few times TBH? Simply put, being able to handily get squishies up to 50k eHP without some massive caveats would be problematic for mechanics centred around aoe damage. Flares would virtually trivialised greatly reducing the difficulty of Faustdeath in particular, not to mention I suspect it'd have a significant impact on several of O3S's mechanics as well. This is of course based on the thinking that a WHM bubble would stack with SCH/AST Galvs, if that isn't your thinking then I'll accept that my point is void here.

On the bright side, I suspect we can both agree that AST was a bit of a dumpster fire all told

[Miste]

The opinion of speed runner/end game meta folks doesn’t count because they’re a minority, but then when you feel like someone doesn’t have enough of this similar end game experience you invalidate their opinion as well until they provide proof?

To be fair you kind of jumped in here and probably don't fully understand why people misunderstood them.

Some of the things they were claiming were confronted with facts not that their opinion is invalid due to no reason. If you try to claim Indom and Earthly Star by themselves heals for more than anything WHM can do well I showed with facts that just isn't true.

They basically said things that don't make sense to some of us, and made some pretty out there claims that seem to show a lack of experience in higher end content. We were wrong and accepted that, but we clarified why it confused us.

“White mage isn’t supposed to have mitigation.” Uh, what, why? Because you’ve dreamed up some identity definitions for the classes on your own, and won’t allow anything other than this ideal to fit? There’s nothing that says WHM can’t have mitigation. They used to have mitigation with stoneskin I and II.

SE has actually said in live letters that WHM is supposed to be a pure healer. So it seems to me they made the definitions not us. Whether or not we want to agree with them is just our own opinions. They kind made the game, not us.

You might have a point about Stoneskin II if it was able to be cast in combat, but it wasn't. WHM has never had an AoE shield that was usable in combat. Stoneskin II was just the beginning of fight and that's it.

I’m also fairly certain OP isn’t requesting a GCD shield like succor or noct aspected helios, so I’m not sure why we’re comparing those. Some long CD oGCD shield that functions similarly to soil or collective unconsciousness I think is what they’re after.

They actually did ask for a shield same power as Succor and Aspected Helios.

I mean I even said a long cooldown AoE shield that isn't too strong is totally fine and as long as it is implemented properly, but WHM simply doesn't need shields as powerful as SCH or Noct AST and I guess you missed the post where they specifically asked for that then?

Also, to all the “don’t run double WHM’ comments, have you ever had a dead co-healer (or one just raised with no mana) and desperately needed mitigation to save the prog, but could do nothing? It happens quite often. Think of meteors in ExDad, or pyretic in 11s. Not only is it a bit silly that the healer supposedly “slotted” for prog (which isn’t the case, by the way) doesn’t have a tool to deal with this scenario, but flip it around and if the WHM was dead, both AST and SCH have some big bursty heals or CDs to deal with what a WHM would’ve normally handled (insert ET succor (which is only a 20s CD btw, can we stop throwing it around that it’s so “locked” how often do you need to spam multiple AOE heals in under 20s?? Damage in this game comes in bursts and waves, and is rarely constant) or largesse’d or lightspeed helios spam).

Simple. Don't have a dead co-healer?

Do you really think it is supposed to be easy to recover from a healer death in progress for savage? A group does not consist of just one player. It is a team effort and if your shielder dies well for one they shouldn't have died and if a wipe happens then it is simply too bad so sad because I am quite sure SE didn't want it to be easy to recover from deaths in the hardest content they add to the game.

For two the rest of your group has tools and responsibility to help save the prog from a wipe. It should not be simply only the healer left alive in charge of trying to pick up the pieces. Bard's have Troubadour, Casters have Addle, Tanks have reprisal and PLD can help heal and even has two AoE mitigations Divine Veil and Passage of Arms, WAR now has Shake it Off, RDMs can raise and heal, SMNs can raise. It isn't supposed to be easy to recover so expecting the lone healer still alive to do it unassisted is just plain wrong anyway no matter which healer job they are on.

As for the 11s reference that was back where healers were not balanced, but this isn't 3.4 anymore.

can we stop throwing it around that it’s so “locked” how often do you need to spam multiple AOE heals in under 20s?? Damage in this game comes in bursts and waves, and is rarely constant) or largesse’d or lightspeed helios spam).

And? How often would WHM need this shield you want for them? How often are there situations where a group wipes for the sole reason that WHM has no AoE shield?

Would you like proof of WHM being excluded from groups? Head to the reddit recruitment sub, find the total number of posts looking for a healer in the past, I dunno, 30 days and then from those posts count the numbers specifically looking for only AST or SCH vs. including WHM. There’s your numbers, go find them. Feel free to add recruitment posts from discord servers. Oh and don’t forget to check their fflogs and see that they’re often either looking for a SCH because they have an AST, or vice versa, or if they’re willing to take SCH or AST, it’s not usually because they already have a WHM, just that their current healer is willing to flex. Speed running metas are pervasive even within groups who have no business trying to force them. Groups in PFs DO actively exclude WHM (among other classes). Even WhyMaige made a comic about it, obviously I’m not the only one encountering this. No I don’t bother to screenshot PF just to service forum justice for situations I haven’t even imagined happening yet. That’s a ridiculous request.

None of this proves WHM is being excluded at a level where it makes any difference. For example, for every 1 group not willing to take a WHM for whatever reason there may be 30 more who want or are totally fine to accept a WHM.

Proves nothing.

Nice cheap shot at me for asking for proof. It wasn't for "forum justice" it was simply showing that there is no evidence to support the claim that "WHM will immediately be ejected from all parties.", yet here we go again with someone trying to claim WHMs are suffering from massive exclusion with no factual evidence to back up their claim beyond limited community resources that do not cover the entire community as a whole.

Try again.

I had been looking for a group for the past several weeks, as a WHM who also likes to optimize and speedkill, but willing to go with a fun average group too, I’m not picky. The first week I posted as a WHM LFG - 0 hits. The next time where I posted I’d be willing to switch to SCH or AST? 5 responses.

Just because you personally got 0 responses....that proves absolutely nothing. It is simply your personal experience only.

There are tons of factors that could have contributed to your lack of responses on WHM compared to the time you mentioned SCH or AST.

Day of the week.
Time of day.
Timezones.
Random fluctuation of player schedules where a lot of people were simply not online at the time.
Maybe the groups looking at that time already had a WHM.
Maybe WHM is popular on your DC and most groups are lacking SCHs or ASTs.
Your personal advertised experience for the fights doesn't match up to what the groups looking for healers want
Maybe there were no groups who needed any healer at all those days and the days you brought SCH and AST into the mix there happen to be many groups looking for healers in general.

So yay, I’m relevant for a couple of weeks and then get forced into a different role or out of a group (yes it happens).

I think the forums would be in an uproar if tons of WHMs were getting kicked from their statics simply for being a WHM. I've only seen two people now claiming that exclusion is a thing. Where are the rest?

I mean progress is mostly over for this tier as we are over 3 months into it....where are the other WHMs who have been suddenly forced to change to AST or kicked out of their statics just because they wanted to play WHM?

Also not one person has said why giving WHM a small long oGCD mitigation skill is a bad thing.

Well to fire this back at you not one person has given a really good reason why WHM needs it either and for development time to be spent on it for something that isn't unique and only really is helpful in a very small amount of situations. Why not give them something unique instead of just giving them shields. I mean like I said it isn't like they have zero shields they just got a single target one instead of AoE.

“I’m a SCH so I can put out a beefy AOE regen, single target regen, big AOE or single target shields, buff the healing potency of the whole group, increase crit on the boss, increase the attack speed of the whole party, put out a pretty bursty raw aoe heal every 30s. But WHM should only be able to 2 of the things I can, raw heals and regens.”

SCH cannot use all of the fairy buffs at the same time. Two fairies with same cooldowns. If you use Eos and use her abilities then Selene's are automatically on cooldown as well and cannot be used even if you summoned her until the cooldowns have reset so you basically forgo that cooldown cycle. SCH needs to pick what they want a DPS boost or extra healing. Not both so whichever buffs you pick there is still a drawback.

The rest of the SCH kit? WHM can do everything there except for the AoE shield, buffing party healing, and the Fey Wind (although they have their own personal Fey Wind with PoM; it's not AoE but it is more potent than Fey Wind. SCH does not have PoM) and two of those are fairy buffs so the SCH has to choose between one or the other they cannot benefit from both at the same time.

I’m an dir AST my MAIN GCD heals are more potent than WHM

To use your phrasing here.....

"lolwut"?

I have both AST and WHM same item level and their Cure II/Benefic II heal for on average around the same amount and actually Benefic I healing on average a couple hundred lower than WHM's Cure I.

At least if you are going claim this stuff test it first.

plus I have the highest potency heal in the game

AST? Has the highest potency heal in the game?

Benediction says Hi

I understand it has no potency per say, but it is a 100% heal. No other healer has a heal that is a guaranteed full HP heal except WHM. That is automatically the best potency.

plus even as dir I can mitigate

Yeah, CU is situational and also has a huge drawback to it. Also like I said earlier WHM has divine benison and diurnal ast doesn't and I am not saying that because I think AST has to have a single target shield, you just seem to be forgetting that WHM does have mitigation it just isn't AoE. It's probably because WHM will always be paired with SCH or Noct AST in groups outside of just casual DF content and they both have AoE shields.

Like I said I am not actually against WHM getting an AoE shield if implemented properly like it not being able to stack with other shields etc because it may imbalance content, but some of this rant you posted seems a bit off to me. I mean I've said I wasn't against it in earlier posts, yet you take cheap shots at me. It doesn't do much good to get people on your side when they actually don't mind the idea then you take cheap shots at them for just asking someone to prove their claims in an open discussion.