Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

[DotsNnots]

Actually I'd say SE doesn't want WHM to have mitigation. Yes we used to have stoneskin, but look back a little further and see how SE have reacted over the years to strategy that have revolved around it. Early T5 required timed Stoneskin+Adlo for the tank to survive death sentence (And a timed Cure II between the DS and infirmity for good measure). Oh hey, WHM proceeded to lose it's % bonus on SS. Remember how quickly the SS2 in combat bug after a raise got stomped out? Whilst Benison is powerful, I can't help but feel that tying it to the Lily mechanic was a deliberate move to make it awkward to rely on rather than an effort to make Lilys seem more valuable.

Uh, so you speak for SE now? I think you make a TON of baseless claims here that could just as easily be explained as balance adjustments or other theories. Unfortunately without anything remotely close to hard evidence I can't give you much credibility here. Some of my claims/opinions are equally baseless so I'm not going to repeat those ones, I just don't think you can go around saying "WHM shouldn't get mitigation because SE thinks they shouldn't have mitigation," (when it's really you/similar minded people who think so, vs. the rest of us).

I can't find a single O4S or Shinryu in PF currently that's excluding WHM and I can't say I've noticed it with any degree of regularity when I've had the pug itch. I've pretty much played WHM exclusively since Omega Savage hit and I've had no issues. Maybe it's an NA thing? /shrug.

TBH (and I don't mean this to sound derogatory by any stretch) it sounds like you've had a bit of a "sheltered healer" life with groups ready to go at the start of a raid launch. PuG life is a rough life, please believe me. And just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not happening or not real or not prevalent.

Rolling over into your point about WHM and speed runs, maybe it's because of the company I keep, but I see highly active WHMs in highly skilled company that have been working hard the last few weeks and are ready and prepped for tomorrow.

I mean raid launch is tomorrow, it would make sense for those who are switching back to WHM for prog to prep their prog class xD

Anything is possible with good Shroud timing it seems <3 Fun fact: Despite my Cure III addiction, the other WHM was pulling more hate than me on the occasions where we overstepped the line (despite me healing faster and harder for the most part). Fun Fact 2: I didn't screenshot it, but we got 4 or 5 first kills on that linked run. Gogo late and hideously overgeared progression =(

Could be smoke screen timings or any number of things. Looks fun, but in terms of simplicity even a small non-stackable mitigation type thing there would've made it easier (thinking in terms of prog or optimal comps)

I thought I did a few times TBH? Simply put, being able to handily get squishies up to 50k eHP without some massive caveats would be problematic for mechanics centred around aoe damage. Flares would virtually trivialised greatly reducing the difficulty of Faustdeath in particular, not to mention I suspect it'd have a significant impact on several of O3S's mechanics as well. This is of course based on the thinking that a WHM bubble would stack with SCH/AST Galvs, if that isn't your thinking then I'll accept that my point is void here.

I'm not sure I get your point. Mitigation isn't going to get them up to 50k hp? Mitigation is just going to take the edge of the initial hit. Also I think you're assuming the mitigation would be more powerful or potent than I am, like significantly. Just to use collective unconscious as an example if you gave WHM the exact equivalent minus the regen(again not saying we should, just want to contextually base the conversation) it would be useless for flares and a variety of mechanics because its caveat is the placement and casting lock. It would need to have SOME cost/detriment to use (honestly building lilies isn't a completely horrible idea because it would force you to plan the proc and give some limitation, but maybe not enough). Even something like the old stoneskin 2 with it's stupid long cast time and a high mp cost, and throw in a long CD for funsies, or some other caveat (and maybe make it not stack with succor but can stack with CU / soil or I dunno not going to design it here!)

tl;dr; asking for something as punishing/hampering as CU without its regen: a pain to use, a long CD, somewhat niche uses, but a good took for the right mechanics.

On the bright side, I suspect we can both agree that AST was a bit of a dumpster fire all told

No arguments from me!

If WHM was to be given an AoE mitigation tool (shield), it should be less powerful that N.AST and SCH counterparts -100 to 150 potency-, and shouldn't be stackable with any other shield (including double WHM).
Slap a 3s cast time on it and a hefty mana cost, or a 3mn cooldown for an oGCD and that'd be perfect.

That's pretty much about it. Any other way (stronger shield, spammable and/or stackable) would make it broken. So there's not a hundred ways of implementing such a mitigation tool...

... If it's even needed. But that subject is now no a 16 pages long thread and nobody managed to put an end to it.

Like I said, I don't think anyone is suggesting a GCD shield for WHM like old stoneskin was. Something more like a complicated aoe divine benison that was a pain to proc but had uses for certain mechanics.

[Sebazy]

Uh, so you speak for SE now?

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this point I guess, perhaps I'm still stuck in the mentality of 'SCH brings the barriers and WHM brings the HP' from ARR /shrug.

it sounds like you've had a bit of a "sheltered healer" life

Yes and no. Whilst yes, I've worked hard to ensure I've earned a safe seat with good company over the years, doesn't mean I don't enjoy a good trap party too. You only have to look at how many post lockout A12s I uploaded at the end of HW to get an idea of that.

I mean raid launch is tomorrow, it would make sense for those who are switching back to WHM for prog to prep their prog class xD

You misunderstand me, they never switched away from WHM.

I'm not sure I get your point. Mitigation isn't going to get them up to 50k hp? Mitigation is just going to take the edge of the initial hit.

Effective HP. 40k caster, 4k galv, 6k 'aoe benison'. You've got 50k effective HP with little to no positioning requirements, throw in a Shake it off and it starts getting sillier. With the way that debuffs don't apply when a hit gets entirely absorbed, that's a dangerous slope that's inevitably going to start breaking mechanics.

Right, because everything will go swimmingly in prog and we'll 1shot. God forbid two healers have the tools to recover the missing WHM utility if a WHM goes down, but WHM can't have any tools to recover the missing utility if an AST or SCH goes down.

TBH I think this depends on your healer's mentality and ability more than anything. I generally had a good track record of saving raids when my 'weaker' or more DPS minded co healers went down irrespective of what healer I was on, but it was rare for them to be able to do the same as they would fail to react in time. On the flipside, sometimes it feels like my current co healer could carry a raid on RDM =(

I definitely feel your point here on progression and it's frustrating when people build entire theories around perfection that rarely adds up irrespective of the level your group plays at. Yet quite frankly, I'm inclined to think that if you can recover from a healer death during progression, then either the healer died at an opportune moment or perhaps the content is simply too forgiving. Healers shouldn't be dieing during progression (Not you Manipulator!).

Actually no, not really. The amount of raiders on the forums is TINY. For various reasons I won't get into. But very few contribute on the OFs.

I'll vouch for this sadly. A very significant portion of my FC is banned from the forums here with most of the remainder wanting nothing to do with it because of that (And I know of many more very prominent community figures that are also banned from here). I very nearly got a perma ban for my guides on how to sustain 1k DPS in the original HW dungeons as a SCH (I linked video replays that had very simplified DPS output, TOS break go!) and got away with it by the skin of my teeth to say the least.

At the risk of side tracking, I honestly think it'd be in SE's interest to put in a 'anything goes but keep it civil' section where parser talk is allowed. It's easy enough to hide it behind disclaimers and tick boxes, it'd give them a good source of insight into the often wacky world of high end raiding IMHO.

Also I frequently get pressured into switching off WHM. Hi, I exist. Also of the groups I've encounter, a lot more push for me to switch than support my staying.

Again, I see your point, but I wonder if you're being a bit sensitive about it? My co healer would prefer me to be on AST over WHM and frankly, if I group ran for more than an hour a week I'd likely have made the switch. The same could be said for our DPS tho. In the end we don't really have the will nor desire to push speed runs (outside of my co healer nudging me along to try and always improve our combined healer DPS ofc) so for the most part, we just go as what we enjoy/feel most comfortable playing. About the only person who's locked in is our Nin due to our tanks being massive DPS nuts

If you're without a group already it's MUCH harder to find one if you're trying to find one as a WHM.

Again, my experience suggests this is due to a never ending shortage of raid level SCHs (and by proxy, capable ASTs that would consider Noct to be their primary sect.

Pps, excuse me if some of my responses are a little harsh, please don't take it as me being salty or such. This is a legitimately enjoyable debate, thanks <3