Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

[Kabzy]

Right now though, in this expansion specifically, I think it does need something extra to compete properly with the other healers in more than just the progression phase of a raid.

Do you at least understand how speed running works?

A group of 8 competent individuals try to clear content in the fastest way possible. Meaning that the 2 most suited tanks/healers and 4 DPS are used, and every other job is excluded. So lets not cry a river for WHM here, the same goes for another 6 jobs.

Now the reason that most people are okay with this is because the healer that is being excluded from this is generally amazing for all other parts of raiding. That includes progression AND weekly. And as stated a hundred times, the majority of the playerbase will not be speed running in the first place, so it's irrelevant to probably most of us even posting in this thread.

Your suggestion is to boost WHM so that they are included in speed runs. Then we have a situation where one other job is alienated, but actually this WHM job is now guaranteed a slot in speed running groups AND has the best kit for progression/weeklies. That result in itself is far worse balanced than what we have now.

We're not stuck in 3.4. AST got its main utility nerfed, SCH got gutted and WHM was the only healer to come out in 4.x actually feeling a lot better.

A little reminder as well, people crying unnecessarily about a job is why we got the hot mess that AST was in 3.4 until 4.1. You doing the same with WHM is only going to be detrimental to the role, if anyone's even still listening to you seriously. *roll eyes*

[Miste]

You're right on one part. Viability isn't enough for me. Viability is such a broad, wide sweeping word. It just means that it's not broken. That it can clear content, despite how it feels to play, how it is comparatively to other jobs, how fun a job is.
I really do hate the word at this point, it feels like it's a poor excuse to ignore issues with the job.

Why should a job stop at being viable? That's not what anyone should aim for or accept.

As for me wanting them to be #1, that's not true at all. I simply want jobs to be able to stand up comparatively to eachother.

A job being viable for the content and accepted by majority for the content is a totally different issue than the job being "fun".

Whether or not a job is "fun" and how the job "feels" to play is all subjective.

Viability is not based on subjectivity it is based on if the job can perform the necessary functions to clear a piece of content.

"Fun" and "viable" are not related at all. A job can be "subjectively fun", but "not viable" or also a job can be "subjectively not fun", but "viable". Completely separate issues.

I mean you say it is a poor excuse to ignore issues, but what issues? Your personal issues that you don't find WHM fun even though it is completely viable at the moment? Viability is what SE is highly likely concerned with more in the case of balance since fun is subjective. Just because some people don't find it fun to play doesn't mean the job isn't viable and doesn't mean there are not many many other players who DO find it fun to play.

I mean you seem to be VERY concerned with people ostracizing jobs from parties, but the thing that causes that to happen on a large scale is viability; -not- if the job is fun to play or not because just because someone else finds WHM personally "not fun" to play doesn't cause them to block WHMs from their parties as long as WHM is completely viable to clear the content.

For example, I hate DRG and do not find it fun to play, but I never block DRG from PF parties I make or not join groups that have a DRG in them or something.

I have told you many times that you likely should give up and switch to a different job other than WHM and it is because of this mentality you have. If you don't have fun on WHM why do you play it still? I also clarified that it doesn't mean I think no complaints are ever justified because sometimes they are.

So no I didn't say viability means we can ignore issues, but the balance gap needs to be much larger than it is right now to change WHM. Otherwise like I said we run into this problem where people are clamoring for balance to be 100% so then you get more and more homogenized jobs that play really similarly or basically have all the same tools that every other job has.

3.4 for example? Yes, WHM balance with SCH and AST the gap was way too far to not make changes and attempt to close the gap closer. The complaints were justified. Now though? It seems to me only a very small minority are still complaining about WHM. I see WHMs everywhere in game and a lot of people play it and seem to love it.

Also sorry if it looked like I was specifically targeting you, I was speaking in general, so that job being #1 thing wasn't directed specifically at you. After the first sentences that directly mentions your post my post becomes simply general statements of my opinion and not aimed at anyone in particular.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I mean you say it is a poor excuse to ignore issues, but what issues?

Actually I meant that in a general sense. That when there ARE balancing issues, the word viable to excuse it's imbalance is used oftenly, even though a jobs viability is never questioned, just how they compare to other jobs in their role.
Basically it was just me ranting a little.
If I were to be completely honest right now, I do agree that healers are the most balanced they've been since the start of HW. Expecting more than that is pushing it I suppose.

If you don't have fun on WHM why do you play it still?
.

I do have fun on WHM. It's more or less the only healer I use in savage/ex content.
Which probably is why I'm so cautious with their balancing. Because if I can't play WHM I'd rather not heal at all. I actually just went Monk for 3.4 and on because of how bad WHM was, and I don't want to see that happen again.

[Ghishlain]

As for me wanting them to be #1, that's not true at all. I simply want jobs to be able to stand up comparatively to eachother.

You do realize that the WHM buffs you (continue) to request would turn WHM into essentially into the what AST became in 3.4, yes?

As I've repeated stated over the course of multiple threads - stop treating WHM like it's the 3.4 WHM when AST managed to outshine WHM in every single aspect. I don't ever see you articulate why you think WHM is "not balanced" in the current incarnation and thus request continual buffs. All I ever here from you is "exclusion" or "imbalance" with little details about why you feel they are imbalanced.

This is 4.X. WHM has better MP management than AST. WHM has better throughput healing than AST. WHM has significantly better personal DPS than AST [and before you argue RAID UTILITY - a good WHM's personal DPS will outshine a decent AST's personal and raid DPS contribution; refer to comments regarding comfort level and how it allows players to play at a higher level versus non-comfortable jobs].

And finally, WHMs aren't being excluded from groups. During my static's raid break last night I took pictures of every single High-end Duty PF ( here's the album - Approximately 9:30PM EST October 20th, 2017 ). All the parties there either had a WHM in the group or was seeking a healer that included WHM. The only two parties seeking a non-WHM healer already had a WHM in the other slot.

To me, each healer brings their own strengths and weaknesses to the table and some are more suited for certain types of content than others. This doesn't mean they're unbalanced.

[Miste]

Actually I meant that in a general sense. That when there ARE balancing issues, the word viable to excuse it's imbalance is used oftenly, even though a jobs viability is never questioned, just how they compare to other jobs in their role.
Basically it was just me ranting a little.
If I were to be completely honest right now, I do agree that healers are the most balanced they've been since the start of HW. Expecting more than that is pushing it I suppose.


I do have fun on WHM. It's more or less the only healer I use in savage/ex content.
Which probably is why I'm so cautious with their balancing. Because if I can't play WHM I'd rather not heal at all. I actually just went Monk for 3.4 and on because of how bad WHM was, and I don't want to see that happen again.

Okay, I understand your point of view better now so at least we have come to a better understanding mutually. Thank you for taking the time to read what I said and to reflect on what I was trying to explain to you. I mean if humans were capable of perfection then it wouldn't be expecting too much to have 100% balance with still having separate toolkits and different play styles, but yeah I feel at this time most people seem to agree the healers are very closely balanced and making it any closer just isn't possible without bad side effects like homogenization and making the jobs too similar to each other and no diversity.

3.4 all we can do is hope it doesn't happen again. It is best not to dwell on it and just have fun in the now, 3.4 level of unbalance is gone and hopefully for good. If something like that where there is too large of a gap between the balance happens again then yeah we'll all be here to show disapproval.

I mean I went through that too in 3.0 like I said I really loved AST but I was blocked out of groups due to it being unbalanced with WHM and SCH and people wouldn't let me play it and it took me awhile to finally find a group that would let me play it and it wasn't until Midas and after AST got buffs they needed so I missed out on doing Gordias on the job I liked, so I understand, but 3.0 is also gone so we shouldn't dwell on the past issues.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

All I ever here from you is "exclusion" or "imbalance" with little details about why you feel they are imbalanced.

I'm pretty sure I've said it before, but I feel their lack of utility, mitigation or otherwise will EVENTUALLY lead to them being undesirable once again. Probably not on the level of 3.4, but nonetheless I feel they're treading the same path.

[and before you argue RAID UTILITY - a good WHM's personal DPS will outshine a decent AST's personal and raid DPS contribution

Can I ask why we constantly compare "really good" players to average players? Shouldn't we be comparing players of equal skill to eachother and go from there? Granted a really good AST still can't match a WHMs DPS, but at that point their utility does push them ahead. Besides utility isn't all about the DPS meter, but what else they bring to the raid. AST brings more than just damage boosts. Stuff that WHM couldn't even begin to touch.

And finally, WHMs aren't being excluded from groups.

Also said this before, but I didn't say they were being excluded now. I just feel like with them more or less treading the same path as 3.0 WHM (no utility, no synergy, higher healing), it's going to end up happening again where WHM is just undesirable.

___

But honestly I'm not trying to continue this debate. I know my fears are pretty baseless, and it's probably just a result of WHM being the only healer I care to play.
Overall I do think healers are pretty fairly balanced right now and that's good enough.

[Ghishlain]

Can I ask why we constantly compare "really good" players to average players? Shouldn't we be comparing players of equal skill to eachother and go from there?

At the absolute pinnacle of skill in a speed kill group, people will be looking to optimize for the best kits possible. This means finding the groups with the best overall DPS and best synergies to optimize this.

At levels below this (the vast majority of players), players should pick the job that gives them the best comfort. Generally speaks better comfort = better skill = better overall play which means a higher overall contribution to the success of the party. Players shouldn't feel forced to pick a job "because it's not Meta" because most of us don't play at the skill and coordination that makes meta compositions just that - the pinnacle of meta.

This is why I argue that players should pick the job that gives them the most comfort - and by extension enjoyment. This generally also means their net contribution to a group will be higher, hence a highly skilled WHM would offer more to a group versus the same WHM who doesn't have the same comfort level with the AST kit. This can easily be applicable in the other way around too.

In terms of mitigation, mitigation is only useful to a point where there's enough HP to survive an attack. This is important in excessively low ilvl groups. In higher ilvl groups, as long as the players can survive the mechanics without mitigation, one could argue the massive throughput WHM offers can be more beneficial as it means less GCDs necessary to top groups off.

There's always a lot of things to consider but you seem to desire more tools from the kits of AST and SCH without considering giving up certain tools WHM have available. As Miste said, if you really want those tools so badly, please go the job that has those tools. A job that can do everything is the epitome of overpowered and I'm sure you also don't want to see that either.

[Erakir]

WHM has significantly better personal DPS than AST [and before you argue RAID UTILITY - a good WHM's personal DPS will outshine a decent AST's personal and raid DPS contribution; refer to comments regarding comfort level and how it allows players to play at a higher level versus non-comfortable jobs].

I'm not sure what relevance this has to the discussion, aside to say that comfort level plays a role in one's performance. It's not a particularly strong argument for balance unless you're simply trying to emphasize that things aren't awful. A good X is better than a decent Y only points out that Y is not ridiculously overpowered, and it would be an even bigger cause for concern if that were the case. I mean, it's a general point I agree with that people should play what they're most comfortable with (and like the most, hopefully), but that's never going to be the end point of the discussion.

You also still talk about massive WHM throughput. I've yet to see people really prove this. It usually ends up talking about spamming cure 3 and timely PIs. When looking at logs with standard comps for healing, often only super high on bad attempts where everything is going wrong and healing throughput is really shown or normal comps that are pretty much 'solo healing,' WHM appears the most often but it is far from dominating the lists. Everything I've seen shows an advantage to WHM, but to this day I've yet to see "Massive WHM throughput" outside of Cure 3 spam despite it being thrown around all the time. Massive implies it absolutely stomps the competition. It does not appear to. AST appears quite capable here though WHM seems to have an easier time putting those numbers up. If WHM truly dwarfed when it came to throughput I'd expect those highest numbers to be nigh unmatched.

I don't think it's a big problem, either, as I dig through some of them, the ASTs matching the healing output are putting out less personal damage and probably matching the overall raid damage contribution as the WHMs. I do, however, tire of this idea that WHM can just utterly decimate on the healing side when I've never personally found that to be the case.

I'd like to derail a little and mention that Shinryu EX, despite some people not really enjoying the healing adds portion, has some interesting mechanics at play with those adds.

-Benediction is obvious. I have to gleefully mention how I'm about to delete one of them each time they spawn with benediction available.
-An easy time to use dissipation without hating the world is another option.
-I feel like you can safely regen 1-3 of the adds too and get pretty effective healing out of them.
- Scratch this, details below. I'd also have to do more testing and actually watch out for it, but I believe Assize hits the healing adds as well (and heals them) since it targets friends and foe alike. Indom wouldn't, as it's group only (I tried to Cure 3 them once, too, and I assume Medica 2 wouldn't land also). I believe earthly star would act similarly to assize, but the adds are often spread out to negate that potential use on more than 1-2.
- Nevermind here, too. Thanks for the info, Sebazy! I would think (haven't run with an AST) that Synastry might be welcome here too since tanks are still taking damage from the wings.

I've talked a lot in the past about people wanting to feel like they bring something unique and welcome to a fight, or have scenarios where certain abilities feel good to use. This may not be the most interesting healing check, but I like some of what's come as a result.
Edit: Oh well, some of these are a no-no. Pity. Still, getting to delete adds is fun.

[Sebazy]

To clarify on the adds thing:

Synastry doesn't appear to work when healing the adds frustratingly.
I'm fairly confident that Assize doesn't hit them either, but I could be wrong here.
Regen works nicely, I usually throw a couple of cure IIs and let regen finish one off.

[Erakir]

To clarify on the adds thing:

Synastry doesn't appear to work when healing the adds frustratingly.
I'm fairly confident that Assize doesn't hit them either, but I could be wrong here.
Regen works nicely, I usually throw a couple of cure IIs and let regen finish one off.

I'll try to take a better look once I'm in there again. I've tried to look a few times, but it's highly possible I just happen to be looking at one my cohealer is spamming at the same time. I'll try to remember to take a video next time and see if they get a ~6k tick or so.

That's unfortunate about Synastry, though. It seems like it'd be a perfect use :/

Edit: To update, I went and checked some of our wipes I still had. I can't seem to find an instance of Assize hitting the Reiryu's despite seeing some casts when they'd have been spawned, so yes, I appear to have been mistaken. Apologies.