Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

[Kabzy]

-Snip-

Not really, the Spear is good but its main purpose IMO was to eliminate the fishing that ASTs had to constantly do. It makes the card system more fluid. But saying that it gave AST a net gain over losing their old Balance is just silly. That one card gave them a guaranteed spot everywhere and was overpowered as hell. The changes to ASTs card might make the gameplay more fluid, but numbers wise is a flat out nerf. Reminder, the first card was never RNG and would always be the most impactful lining up with everyones buffs/openers.

As for your second point, I'd say that's a subjective argument. Personally I hear about this "speedrun meta mindset" and then things like "kicked for not DPSing as healer" on the forums literally everywhere and have yet to encounter it in game ... ever. Now I'm not directing this at you, but I feel like people who use those arguments for why they weren't picked need to look at themselves before they blame the job they are playing. WHM pre 4.0 had many issues, those have all been addressed bar utility. However, as I said before, giving them utility creates imbalances with other jobs (mainly AST), and then you put AST in a bad position. The balance is still good, there's no need to throw a wrench in it.

[MoroMurasaki]

AST, as far as I can remember, haven't really received anything notable except for their Balance nerf.

This is from your prior post. I don't mean to get nit picky but based on what you say there either you forgot about the Spear change (catapulting it from the most useless card in the deck, something agreed upon virtually unanimously, to the second best) or you somehow are of the opinion that the Spear change was not notable.

With those two changes to cards competent ASTs went from sometimes buffing the party a crazy amount to pretty regularly buffing the party for a still meaningful damage increase. Again, I don't mean to be rude bbuthave you seen a BRD with the Spear while Litany is up? To imply this isn't a significant buff to AST is silly.

Not really, the Spear is good but its main purpose IMO was to eliminate the fishing that ASTs had to constantly do. It makes the card system more fluid. But saying that it gave AST a net gain over losing their old Balance is just silly. That one card gave them a guaranteed spot everywhere and was overpowered as hell. The changes to ASTs card might make the gameplay more fluid, but numbers wise is a flat out nerf. Reminder, the first card was never RNG and would always be the most impactful lining up with everyones buffs/openers.

As for your second point, I'd say that's a subjective argument. Personally I hear about this "speedrun meta mindset" and then things like "kicked for not DPSing as healer" on the forums literally everywhere and have yet to encounter it in game ... ever. Now I'm not directing this at you, but I feel like people who use those arguments for why they weren't picked need to look at themselves before they blame the job they are playing. WHM pre 4.0 had many issues, those have all been addressed bar utility. However, as I said before, giving them utility creates imbalances with other jobs (mainly AST), and then you put AST in a bad position. The balance is still good, there's no need to throw a wrench in it.

The balance is still good for an AST main. Is the balance better than HW? For sure! But just because healers are more balanced than HW doesn't mean they're in a good place. The healer balance in HW was literally nonexistant and I'm glad that wasn't something you experienced personally but it doesn't change the fact that it was true.

The bottom line is this, and I challenge anyone to offer a rebuttal to it. All healers can heal all content. Two healers have raid dps increases. This is not balanced. There is nothing that WHMs can do that will ever equate to even mediocre Balance/Spear/Arrow uptime from an AST or Chain Stratagem from a SCH. This guarantees AST a spot anywhere they want one STILL and has WHM and SCH fighting over the leftovers except for the fact that SCH at least thought to bring a weapon to the fight.

The way I see it the only way to balance these things is to give all healers the same basic toolkit, or buff WHM DPS to the point of meeting AST's contrinution to the raid.

[Kabzy]

-Snip-

Okay I can admit the Spear change was significant. However, that still doesn't outweigh the nerf that The Balance card got. It was definitely a needed nerf, as it was ridiculous to begin with, but a nerf nonetheless. Even with more uptime on buffs (which is still based on RNG), ASTs raid DPS contribution is not as great as it was pre-nerf. That is why I cannot agree with you when you say it was a significant buff. It was if you're simply comparing the old Spear to the new one, but overall their card power is not as strong without that broken 20% damage increase.

And by your other suggestions, that would require you to basically remove SCHs abilities being gated by Aetherflow/CDs, give AST better personal DPS, more oGCD heals, better MP management etc etc. One of the biggest complaints everyone had was they did NOT like the homogenization of all the healer jobs. This suggestion is absolutely terrible.

I haven't done any number crunching, so take this with a grain of salt. The DPS differences between WHM and AST for O1-3s seem to have a difference of around 500 or less. And then Neo has the top WHM beating the top AST by just under 1000. That's a pretty significant difference in personal DPS that WHM is bringing to the group. Now it's not too plausible using the top players as an example, but then these are the guys who do the speed running that we seem to be so obsessed with.

[Joe777]

We had Stoneskin II, and then we had it and Stoneskin taken away. Now we have Divine Benison. There is a way to make Divine Benison work for this thread topic though...

1 Lily: Works as it does now.
2 Lilies: Add an AoE effect, say the same as Cure III, so allies near the target get the shield too.
3 Lilies: Same as 2 Lilies, but the radius is as big as Medicas.

[MoroMurasaki]

snip

At this point I've got two main issues here so I'll try to articulate them as best I can because I feel like we've highjacked OP's thread a bit and I didn't want to do that.

The first is the idea that either SCH or AST would need anything added to them if an rDPS increase utility skill was added to WHM. WHM is, at this point, the weakest of the healers. I know it doesn't feel that way healing on it because of the big numbers it can put out but when it comes to 8man (as I said before) WHM personal DPS cannot outweigh rDPS increases offered by the other healers.

Why does this make them technically weakest? Because, as has been stated a million times already, every healing job can heal all content. Just because WHM might have an easier time bring HPS or allow for a lower skill floor in order to perform the bare minimum does not mean it's better than the other healers because in the hands of players of equal skill WHM will contribute the least to the group's DPS as all they have is their personal DPS.

If there is some part of this I'm not adequately explaining please tell me.

The way it stands now nothing short of having your cohealer solo heal while you only DPS on WHM will allow a WHM to approach the DPS gain offered by having an AST in the party and even then I doubt the numbers would match up. This means as fights become more farmable the WHM burst HPS (which, btw, AST also does well, looking at you ES) which is really it's only strength becomes meaningless.

WHMs have nothing to them to compete with the rDPS increases the other healers offer and giving them more defensive options isn't what they need (oh look, kinda back on topic for the second, lol me) because they are already able to heal everything.

The second is your dismissal of the speedrun/meta. It is a nice sentiment. I also feel like those things don't add to the game. The reality we play in however is that those people set an example that the rest of us (generally) strive to follow. When enough people are exclusing WHM because they have all available content on farm it becomes a domino effect and you see the exclusion of WHM from more casual groups.

I'm not saying that WHMs are bad, it is my main and I love playing it, but I am saying that introducing rDPS buffs on their competition is a mistake if it isn't across the board.

Another option? Remove rDPS increase abilities from the other healers and buff up their personal DPS to match a WHM. That is boring homogenization for sure but at least it doesn't see one job excluded from content just because it doesn't play well with others.

I bet the tank forum had these discussions about WAR before 4.1....

[Kabzy]

Why does this make them technically weakest? Because, as has been stated a million times already, every healing job can heal all content. Just because WHM might have an easier time bring HPS or allow for a lower skill floor in order to perform the bare minimum does not mean it's better than the other healers because in the hands of players of equal skill WHM will contribute the least to the group's DPS as all they have is their personal DPS.

I'm actually not going to disagree with you on any of this, I think you are right. But what you're doing here is only looking at it from one aspect. You are solely looking at the job from a speed-running mindset. I previously said that WHMs shine and have found their place in progression healing. I do believe that WHM is the weakest when it comes to speed comps, but like I said before, one healer will ALWAYS be left out of these. The same way that one tank will, and five DPS will. No matter how much they give or take, the best speedrunners out there will figure out the most optimal 8 and run with that only.

If you were to give WHM raid utility, they suddenly find themselves in speed running comps while still having a solid spot on any progression team. And that, IMO, is not fair. Any healer comp is viable, and I think that one good thing about the balance now is that the healer which isn't included in one miniscule aspect of raiding (speed runs), shines in what the majority of raiders will experience, progression.

I'd also like to point out that WHM has a lower skill ceiling compared to the other two as a whole, not just bare minimum. It might not be a popular opinion, but I personally think that jobs which require more to do should also reap more benefits. Subjective, yes, but I play all three healers quite often (AST the least), and I can definitely say WHM is not as involved as the other two.

The way it stands now nothing short of having your cohealer solo heal while you only DPS on WHM will allow a WHM to approach the DPS gain offered by having an AST in the party

For obvious reasons I'm not going to link my source, but you'll find that to be the case in both the WHMs parses and the ASTs parse. The Neo Exdeath figures did surprise me, but being above by close to 1k is definitely not something small. Especially consdering the AST also had a SCH providing raid buffs as well. Like I said though, I've not done the number crunching, and ofc WHM won't provide as much of a DPS increase. But clearly a skilled WHM can bring enough of a contribution to keep themselves more than relevant. This essentially makes a case of give and take, if you want raid buffs on WHM, they would need to give some DPS away, and that once again is stepping on ASTs territory and more of the lovely homogenization.

The second is your dismissal of the speedrun/meta. It is a nice sentiment. I also feel like those things don't add to the game. The reality we play in however is that those people set an example that the rest of us (generally) strive to follow.

I'll admit, I've been with my raid group for a long time now so I haven't had much experience with PF recruitment. My only advice would be that you're better off not joining those groups in the first place, and chances are that they would never get far themselves. I'm still sticking my statement that I never see these biased PFs in game, only on the forums, but if that's what people experience in other data centers, you need to find better people to play with.

Do we buff jobs based on peoples perceptions or on the numbers? AST was doing just fine in 3.3, but it got buffed to God tier because people kept treating the job like some meme. WHM is doing fine, the clear rates on all content for all healers is very healthy, as is the playerbase of WHMs as well.

I agree though, we have gone off topic quite a bit. I think this will be an agree to disagree result. The main reason being that I'm okay with a job being excluded in speed runs simply because it was bound to happen to one of our jobs. What I think 4.0 has got right though is that the same job is performing very well in progression, which is what 100% of raiders will be going through.

[KDSilver]

Are you... going to cry on WHM every month Exiled ?

If a content need you to mitigate damage, that means you need to bring two different healers.
Problem solved.

[NobleWinter]

Medica II vs Whispering Dawn

Medica II
200 potency initial
50 potency HoT @ 10 ticks
Total Potency = 700

Whispering Dawn
Approximately 67 potency HoT @ 7 Ticks
Total potency = 469


Largesse Medica II vs Roused Whispering Dawn

Medica II
240 potency initial
70 potency HoT @ 10 ticks
Total Potency = 940

Whispering Dawn
Approximately 94 potency HoT @ 7 Ticks
Total Potency = 658

Plenary Indulgence Medica vs Emergency Succor

Medica
300 potency initial
150 potency bonus from PI
Total Potency = 450

Succor
150 potency initial
225 potency bonus from ET
Total Potency = 375

Take what you will from the above number crunches~ Considering we're discussing CDs verus GCD heals or GCDs heals with some CDs but not others, anything can really be misconstrued to suit one's argument.

The difficulty in comparing SCH Skills to WHM Skills is that a SCH can use the increased healing bonus from Dissipation, Largesse, and Fey Illumination all at one time if they choose to. Technically a SCH has the possibilty to create the strongest raw healing of all three healers in brief bursts but this potential is locked behind Abilities that must be carefully guarded for emergencies. WHM can only use Largesse but obviously has more consistent options for layering on potent healing.

[MoroMurasaki]

snippity snip snip

I'll be much more consice here as I agree we are devolving into a cyclic argument and it likely won't go anywhere. Before that I just want to say I do appreciate how respectful you've been though! It's not something I see on the forums very much, thank you!

You say WHM has a progression spot so giving it the utility to have a chance at a raiding spot would unbalance it... But AST has a more or less guaranteed spot in both right now. AST ALWAYS has a spot in both and has for almost it's entire existance. How is it unbalanced to take away the insane advantage AST has over the other healers exactly? Healing styles and skill levels aside an AST will win out virtually 100% of the time.

If you want to call that balance then I have a bridge I'd love to sell you.

[Kabzy]

You say WHM has a progression spot so giving it the utility to have a chance at a raiding spot would unbalance it... But AST has a more or less guaranteed spot in both right now.

Any of the healers have a spot in progression raiding right now, which is definitely good balance. However, I do still think that WHM has the best tools for progression, hence my point that they are the best progression healer out of the three. Virtually unlimited mana, strongest heals and good oGCD heals while having a simple playstyle. This doesn't mean that they are guaranteed a spot, but hopefully we can agree that they are generally the best in this scenario.

My main point, which you haven't addressed, is still that one healer will lose out in speed running groups. No matter how much balancing they do, it will always be the case when three jobs are competing for two slots. Currently the job that is missing out, WHM, is top in the other aspect of raidng, progression. Now if we buff WHM to enter speed running comps, that suddenly makes them guaranteed in speed running comps while also being the best at progression healing. This wouldn't necessarily make another job irrelevant, but having one job that is number one in both aspects is less balanced than what we have right now IMO. At least if you agree that WHM is best in progression as of now, if you don't then my entire point will understandably not sit well with you.

I guess my final point here is that we need to remember the nature of speed running groups. No matter how perfect they get the balancing, only two jobs will make the cut. It's sad that WHM doesn't get the spot, but at least they have their place in progression. Speed runners are a minority of a minority, and if groups are pushing away WHM because of some silly mindset they have taken on, then it's up to the player to avoid them.

And yes, it's been a nice little debate! ;p

Edit: This is all under the assumption that you would like WHM to get enough rDPS/personal DPS utility to outshine SCH or AST. If WHM got anything less, then it would probably make them even more solid in progression groups, but you'd stll be stuck with this issue of not being wanted in speed run comps. That's my entire point about the balancing, you simply can't do it for speed comps to involve all three healers as players will always find the best two for the job.