Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

[Sebazy]

Also note that in many occasions, a party slot can appear locked to a single slot by someone joining and then leaving a PF.

[winsock]

It doesn't have to be strong, just a little something for the few times we run into double WHM and have no answer to the excessively high damage we've been getting lately. Right now WHM is the only healer that simply sits still not doing anything useful In the face of damage that could potentially wipe your party, and it's a bit sad.

So I am a former WHM main.
Can I asked what duties you are referring to in which you have double WHM and "no answer to the excessively high damage"

Thing is, SE is very careful about max eHP values. So much so that AST and SCH shields don't stack. We should assume the same for a WHM shield. So the only time it could be useful is in a double WHM party. You won't take double WHM to bleeding edge content, and current DF PUG content is all doable with double WHM.

Shields are something AST/SCH get to bring to the table, don't take that away by giving shields to WHM

[Exiled_Tonberry]

This is just paranoia.
I'd like some proof that WHMs are getting blocked out of the majority of parties or statics please.

I never said WHM was being locked out of parties as of now.
I said they will be when people once again catch on to utility is better than excessive healing.
If AST was the only healer that had DPS increase utility, I think things would be fine. But SCH has it too, and it synergizes extremely well with most jobs that rely on crit.
Just like with WAR not having any party mitigation while DRK and PLD had it, the issue of WHM not having any utility is going to create a problem down the line.


Also to all the people saying WHM is fine because it's used in progression. Progression for most people lasts a month. After that, people have enough gear to not actually need that amount of raw healing. Why should WHM only be a wanted member for one month, then kicked aside for 6+ months?

[Miste]

I said they will be when people once again catch on to utility is better than excessive healing.
If AST was the only healer that had DPS increase utility, I think things would be fine. But SCH has it too, and it synergizes extremely well with most jobs that rely on crit.
Just like with WAR not having any party mitigation while DRK and PLD had it, the issue of WHM not having any utility is going to create a problem down the line.

You have absolutely no proof that this will happen.

In fact there is precedence possibly hinting at the opposite. Like I said even in HW when healers were less balanced than now and AST had the buffed balance that they recently removed I still did not see WHMs or myself as WHM getting blocked out of groups even when their utility was less than now and AST was more powerful than now.

So again unless you can prove this it is simply just paranoia and doomsaying.

Why should WHM only be a wanted member for one month, then kicked aside for 6+ months?

Again prove it that people are removing and/or blocking WHMs. It's been about 3 months of this savage tier. Post proof that WHMs are being kicked out of their statics and/or forced to change to AST or SCH and proof that the majority of groups in PF refuse to take a WHM anymore since it has about 3 months since it was released.

[Kabooa]

You have absolutely no proof that this will happen.

In fact there is precedence possibly hinting at the opposite. Like I said even in HW when healers were less balanced than now and AST had the buffed balance that they recently removed I still did not see WHMs or myself as WHM getting blocked out of groups even when their utility was less than now and AST was more powerful than now.

It's really only noticeable as out of favor DPS classes.

Most PF's aren't going to lock out a potential 1/3rd of the tanks or healers. But gods help you if you're a Black Mage or Monk.

[Miste]

It's really only noticeable as out of favor DPS classes.

Most PF's aren't going to lock out a potential 1/3rd of the tanks or healers. But gods help you if you're a Black Mage or Monk.

Possibly. I have seen no proof of this being common either though, personally.

We are specifically talking about healers in this case though.

[Ghishlain]

I never said WHM was being locked out of parties as of now.
I said they will be when people once again catch on to utility is better than excessive healing.
If AST was the only healer that had DPS increase utility, I think things would be fine. But SCH has it too, and it synergizes extremely well with most jobs that rely on crit.
Just like with WAR not having any party mitigation while DRK and PLD had it, the issue of WHM not having any utility is going to create a problem down the line.


Also to all the people saying WHM is fine because it's used in progression. Progression for most people lasts a month. After that, people have enough gear to not actually need that amount of raw healing. Why should WHM only be a wanted member for one month, then kicked aside for 6+ months?

It's pretty poor to assume that there are no more progression parties 3 moths after Omega Savage was released. There will always be all different types of players who will be entering / completing content at different times and WHM will assist these new progression teams in moving forward. Afterwards, they may choose to keep WHM / ??? whomever as their healing pair because they got used to progressing with X composition and they might not be interested changing to Y composition for "faster kills". Not every raider will want to be a speed kill raider - they'll be interested in clearing the content, getting their pages and loot, and moving onto something else afterwards. Sometimes, having that security with a safer healer comp will be better as it allows for more flexibility in mistakes.

This is not to say that all groups will be like this either - some will make adjustments to suit a speedkill meta, some will remain in their comfort level and keep what they deem is comfortable. To me there's enough players of each ilk to keep WHM going in the raid scene, even if it might be considered a tertiary choice in some aspects.

Please stop living like this is 3.4 era when AST defeated WHM in every facet of healing kits. 4.0 WHM offers higher HPS spikes via oGCD abilities versus the more GCD-powered AST that allow groups to smooth over mistakes much easier than AST. WHM DPS is significantly higher than AST and is less reliant on your DPS "doing well" to contribute strongly to the rDPS front. WHM's MP kit and longevity far exceeds those of AST allowing for better and more frequent wipe recovery maneuvers.

If people move past WHM being in their composition once they clear, that's fine. Not every group is going to be like that and some will choose to remain in their comfort zone once they can clear the content. WHM is definitely in a much better spot now than it was in 3.4 when AST was buffed out the ying yang.

Also, as far as I'm aware the only party mitigation DRK has is their LB. They don't have access to things like Shake It Off, Divine Veil, and Passage of Arms.

[Kabzy]

I said they will be when people once again catch on to utility is better than excessive healing.

People don't need to catch onto this, it has been very obvious from the start of 3.x. The issue, as literally everyone has said now, is that during 3.4 AST got buffed to levels where they outclassed WHM in every aspect, and brought utility on top of that. This is no longer the case, WHM has its own contributions to a party now at the lack of said utility.

Also to all the people saying WHM is fine because it's used in progression. Progression for most people lasts a month.

I can't speak for everyone, but I highlighted that WHM shines in progression, not that it's the only area of raiding that they'll be included in. In fact, it's been made quite clear that the only groups which won't take a WHM are speed running groups, which also alienate all casters, MNK, SAM etc etc.

Speed runners are a minority within a minority. The majority of groups that do their weeklies will not have any real reason to change their comps around, unless they're doing it for the fun of it.

If you can't see what WHM can bring to a party, move on.

Edit: And no, we won't be getting a repeat of 3.4. Mainly because there is currently no need for them to buff any healer to God tier. You should remember that WHM was doing fine for the majority of 3.x, while it still had no utility. It only struggled in 3.4 cause the devs derped and decided to make AST do everything better and bring more to the table.

[Saraphin]

well, WAR now has party Mitigation. so...they'll not have to worry about only being included in either "Speed" or "progression" runs.

But as Exiled says...WHMs are mainly used for progression. after that, you'll see people being told to "change healer classes". I've seen it, people have left statics in HW because they refused to change healer classes and were having a lot of pressure put on them. We've seen it in the past where WHMs have been kicked from things and being told to "Roll an AST". This was a very, very big issue in the Ultros NN around 3.4 onwards.

there is going to be this slight unless something else is given to WHM. I'm not saying buff them up more. hell, people have done math and AST as the same, if not MORE raw healing power in Diurnal. Why SE did that, i don't know.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

You have absolutely no proof that this will happen.

It happened in 3.0. Specifically in 3.4, where statics pressured their healers to roll AST every single week until they either did so or left the static.
Likewise, Zurvan groups blocked WHM from joining because of the whole "skip soar" thing, and AST/SCH was a much better combo to achieve this. Luckily these were the last patches, or it would have went on even further.

Are you really going to deny all of this happening, and are you really trying to tell me it won't happen again even though all of the signs point to the same conclusion?


And again, I never said the exclusion was happening NOW but it WILL happen if things stay as they are.