Tanks Letting DPS Die

[Kahnom]

I'm always diversion if the aggro bar starting to get ugly.
But even with diversion if the tank stayed in attack stance then its only the matter of times before healer or me get aggro again.
And if healer got aggro I'll help them because I don't believe any tank in attack stance can save anyone.

[Karshan]

In his initial post (didn't bother if he posted anything in the other pages) he says the tank call for "diversion" but he doesn't say he didn't use it. He just says :
Tank pull boss (btw I only notice now he was talking about boss, not mobs)
Tank loses hate
DPS gets hit
Tank remains in DPS stance and makes apparently no voke or so
DPS dies.

My reaction as a DPS would simply be to :
- be careful if I start with a burst, can happen in dungeon, happens less in raid
- If enmity gained, try and stop attacking for a while just to let him gain enmity back, and pray the healer sees right away I'm the one getting hit for now
Tank has nothing to apologize for, but if his reaction simply is autotrad "diversion" (I used it) while in DPS stance doing RA like combos, boy I'm not gonna go easy on him and remind him, by my playstyle, he might need his tank stance, maybe only 10 seconds for the pull

[EaMett]

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks). As a dps you're the only person who can control your enmity. If you're close to getting aggro and used all your enmity cooldowns, then stop dpsing.
The flip side of this is that the tank is absolutely at fault for capping the group dps and should readjust their play accordingly.

The one exception here is if you're a healer doing no overhealing, used enmity control and are still grabbing aggro. Then that's on the tank.

[Avatre]

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks). As a dps you're the only person who can control your enmity. If you're close to getting aggro and used all your enmity cooldowns, then stop dpsing.
The flip side of this is that the tank is absolutely at fault for capping the group dps and should readjust their play accordingly.

I will strongly disagree with all the underlined sections. As a DPS, yes, I need to watch my agro generation, and appropriately use my Diversion/Lucid Dreaming/etc, BUT, it is also on the tank to be aware of what everyone's agro meter is at so that they can use their agro combo if needed, even in DPS stance. I keep a constant eye on that when I tank, so that my DPS do NOT have to stop DPSing, and can continue to bust out their entire combo as quickly as they can. I have rarely lost agro, even from the initial burst on a boss.

[EaMett]

I will strongly disagree with all the underlined sections. As a DPS, yes, I need to watch my agro generation, and appropriately use my Diversion/Lucid Dreaming/etc, BUT, it is also on the tank to be aware of what everyone's agro meter is at so that they can use their agro combo if needed, even in DPS stance. I keep a constant eye on that when I tank, so that my DPS do NOT have to stop DPSing, and can continue to bust out their entire combo as quickly as they can. I have rarely lost agro, even from the initial burst on a boss.

I don't see how that's a rebuttal of what I said. You're essentially saying that as a tank you do your best not to cap the group DPS because of enmity issues. We're agreeing.

[Karshan]

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks). As a dps you're the only person who can control your enmity. If you're close to getting aggro and used all your enmity cooldowns, then stop dpsing.
The flip side of this is that the tank is absolutely at fault for capping the group dps and should readjust their play accordingly.

The one exception here is if you're a healer doing no overhealing, used enmity control and are still grabbing aggro. Then that's on the tank.

Pulling in DPS stance = not doing everything in his power to keep enmity, so If I did (lucid + diversion) sorry but it's on him. I have a job to do and a rotation to maintain, the jobs are designed to be ok if things are done correctly. He wanna go permanent DPS stance ? Fine by me, might he be well stuffed and/or well skilled, otherwise refrain.

[EaMett]

Sorry but if you pull aggro from him it's your fault. You might not like it but that's the order of things. Grabbing aggro is a pain for your entire party not just you. You could very well wait for the tank to build enmity before starting your rotation.
The fact that you can't dps fully is however on the tank. And if they can they should change how they play to allow you to go all out.

Somehow because the content is so easy people seem to forget this. If the mobs one shot you maybe you'd get it then. Loosing a few gcds or messing up your rotation is preferable to dying, costing the healer raise MP, heal MP, and dps gcds. Not to mention the tank running around, positionals, or the potential cleaving of other playersetc.. etc.. Pulling aggro is always on the dps.

[Wintersandman]

Sorry but if you pull aggro from him it's your fault. Pulling aggro is always on the dps.

I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

[ManuelBravo]

I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

However it is the DPS and healers job to go to tank if they get enmity not run around like a chicken with their heads cut off -.-. Now if your bringing them to tank and tank doesn't grab them that is just poor tanking. If regen effects are active while pulling they will agro healer right away. Tanks , healers, and dps should remove effect before pull. So in a way it's everyone's fault -.- I tank / heal / DPS as needed and from my experience it's just poor judgement and play style. Remember not everyone has the same type of experience and many people think they know their jobs and what to do..

[Ilan]

I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

If i tank a boss as a DRK i'll use my hate combo once at the start and thats usualy enough if the dps' are using diversion and so on properly and that means i'll leave tankstance and if everyone is doing their job properly i don't have to go back into tankstance again. If a dps is ripping hate of me in such a situation he is either completly overgeared compared to me, what results in me using more often the hate combo, or he is just a lazy joker who doesn't use his skills properly. I can understand that tanks let these jokers bite the dust because they are incredible annoying. I also understand tanks who get pissed off if someone always has to pull more mobs, except to maintain buffs etc.

What i don't understand are these tanks where the dps is doing nothing wrong and they still are not able to hold hate of 3 mobs and don't even care to keep hate.