Tanks Letting DPS Die

[EaMett]

the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.
So no it isn't always on the dps.

I never said the tank was doing their job right. Or that they weren't being selfish. I'm saying it's your responsibility not to pull aggro as a DPS regardless of the tank you have. If you pull, it's always on you as a dps. You can cry all you want about how bad your tank is. The fact is YOU are the one pulling aggro and all that it entails. And -again- if this game were a bit harder and the mobs killed you consistently, YOU would be the dps contributing the least compared to the dps properly managing their aggro. Which again means that YOU fail at your role which is to contribute as much DPS as you can in that group setting. (as opposed to how much you can in a striking dummy setting)

Don't get me wrong. If your tank is capping your dps because they aren't building proper enmity. By all means call them out. But don't blame them for your mismanagement of aggro. (I get it, it's frustrating, especially if the tank is being a douche. Still your fault though).

I also addressed the healer aggro point earlier in my initial post FYI

[Neela]

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks). As a dps you're the only person who can control your enmity. If you're close to getting aggro and used all your enmity cooldowns, then stop dpsing.

thats just bullshit... I always wonder since when dds are in charge of tanks enmity. all this bullshit who's responsible for enmity and dps increased in the end of HW where every healer and every tank was just seeking for more and more personal dps. the general rule is the following: tanks should tank, healer should heal. tank/healer dps is just a fucking bonus if you do your job correct. and most tanks nowadays are just bad... I never had so much enmity problems in hw as absolut aoe king cls with my old deathflare and bane but I got more and more trouble in sb with nerfed aoe skills - and not cause smns are that op but cause of the mindchange on most of the random tanks I met = running in dps stance...

Pulling in DPS stance = not doing everything in his power to keep enmity, so If I did (lucid + diversion) sorry but it's on him. I have a job to do and a rotation to maintain, the jobs are designed to be ok if things are done correctly. He wanna go permanent DPS stance ? Fine by me, might he be well stuffed and/or well skilled, otherwise refrain.

this. if you are able to play like that do it - if you are not able just don't. simple like that. but don't blame the dds if you can't hold aggro as a maintank - excuses like we should use div/luc for every pull is just embarrassing for all other tanks around.

[EaMett]

thats just bullshit... I always wonder since when dds are in charge of tanks enmity.

They're in charge of THEIR enmity. I wonder how much of the exchange you've actually read because you're basically going over all the same stuff.
We get it. If your tank sucks it's hard not to pull aggro from them. And, sure, it's frustrating to take the blame for pulling aggro because the tank is selfishly dpsing or whatever. Still your damn fault if you take aggro off of him. It's your enmity, you're the ONLY one who has control of it. Get over it. Just tell your tank you're sorry for pulling aggro and then ask him to build more enmity because he's effectively capping your dps. If he doesn't want to, he's a douche.

There's is only one case where grabbing aggro from a tank is the tank's fault and I addressed that in my initial post.

[Neela]

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks).

And, sure, it's frustrating to take the blame for pulling aggro because the tank is selfishly dpsing or whatever. Still your damn fault if you take aggro off of him. It's your enmity, you're the ONLY one who has control of it. Get over it. (...) There's is only one case where grabbing aggro from a tank is the tank's fault and I addressed that in my initial post.

this is just your personal opinion. the tanks enmity skills are designed the way that they should (easily) hold the aggro no matter what kind of magic trick any dd is supposed to present. if tanks lose enmity its their fucking fault cause they miscalculated their amount. the dds just did their job: DPS – in this case most probably "good" dps.

if a tank lose enmity its his personal fault of what ever reasons and there are straight more than just one, oversaw a mob? wrong stance? wrong combo? wrong target? - anything but not the dds fault. what kind of world we would life in if dds have to hold themselves back just for the fact that tanks can say "Im used to play aggressively" - cmn even a one-eyed pirate would see, thats wrong. so no you have to get over it.

The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. (...) your responsibilities don't change.

it actually is his responsibility. end of story.


edit:

DPS single targeting during an AoE pull is understandably DPS fault. DPS prepulling mobs is understandably DPS fault. DPS spike damage 1.5 seconds into a pull is understandably DPS fault.

But... seriously? You have one job. Tank Stance, Shield Lobe, Flash, Enmity Combo. SE has buffed tank's enmity generation to the moon. You simply fail as a tank, if any DPS can rip hate from you. Where is your pride as tank?!

exactly.

[ShadowYomi]

If the tank did that after using lucid and diversion they would have no right to complain if everything dies slowly afterwards.

[Ekimmak]

I think the most likely case for me losing aggro in current content is the moss walls in temple of the fist.

It takes a really unpleasant position to get the mobs as close as possible, and enemies that spawn don't get added to my threat list, so there can be mosslings running around I can't see, because the camera is shoved up my character's backside and there's 10 people blocking my view (as well as whatever ground targeted barrier/heal mechanic I have on me).

If I lose a mob, I will do everything in my power to bring it back. Because I'm not picking a tank for its personal DPS, I should be focused first and foremost on tanking. The only time I've let a DPS die is when they specifically ran ahead before a battle is finished and aggro'd a group of enemies (specifically, the second honey wall in the saint's arbotoreum) when I said "Do not pull that until the current group is dead". Could I have handled that? Dunno, wasn't feeling confident. So if a DPS thinks they know better, they can tank it.

[Isencroft]

DPS single targeting during an AoE pull is understandably DPS fault. DPS prepulling mobs is understandably DPS fault. DPS spike damage 1.5 seconds into a pull is understandably DPS fault.

But... seriously? You have one job. Tank Stance, Shield Lobe, Flash, Enmity Combo. SE has buffed tank's enmity generation to the moon. You simply fail as a tank, if any DPS can rip hate from you. Where is your pride as tank?!

[Hruodig]

I never have trouble holding aggro as a tank main, but I also expect my dps to use aggro tools to help out. For example, I can open any exr dungeon boss fight in dps stance on any tank (except war, which I'll just equilibrium and immediately go into deliverance on) if I have a nin in my party. But I've had more than a few nin pugs who refuse to shadewalker/smokescreen no matter how many times I ask, and there's really no reason for that. Help me help you.

[MauvaisOeil]

It isn't subjective at all really, well from the points you brought up anyway.

If a tank is clearly undegeared especially when the dps over gear him by a considerable amount of Ilevel. The tank should take that into consideration when establishing hate and switching into DPS stance. The DPS should also be using their aggro dump CDs and if they are and the tanks lose hate , it's objectively the tanks fault.

A BLM that single targets in a multiple mob pull, it's the BLMs fault if they pull hate. No question. Like, wtf are you doing? fire 2? flare? thunder 4? foul? learn your damn class. This goes for any DPS class used by an idiot who thinks trying to attack 1 enemy out of the 10 that are beating on the tank when they have AOE is a good idea.

Nothing subjective here, mate.

Not, it's not really subjective because here everyone is barely knowing what is AOE, ST, and enmity management.

But everytime I cross a player doing thoses errors, and tell him, it's never his fault by his opinion.

That's where the subjectivity lies : Knowing if you did wrong anytime

And that's something you will rarely see in players you cross dungeon with.

[Venoshock]

Not, it's not really subjective because here everyone is barely knowing what is AOE, ST, and enmity management.

But everytime I cross a player doing thoses errors, and tell him, it's never his fault by his opinion.

That's where the subjectivity lies : Knowing if you did wrong anytime

And that's something you will rarely see in players you cross dungeon with.

what other players think is subjective or not is irrelavant when it comes to how this game is played.

Single target attacking in a large pull is demonstrably far less efficient than using AOE attacks because not only does it take much longer to kill the group of adds, it also puts stress on the tanks and healers as cooldowns are a thing. This is a fact. Their opinion, is irrelevant. If a DPS argues or flat out ignores you after bringing this to their attention, don't even say anything more, just kick them out.

As for enmit management, if your DPS is using their enmity modifiers and the tank still loses aggro for what ever reason. It's objectively the tnks fault.The DPS did their jobs, the tank obviously isn't. Again, personal opinion is irrelevant, because this is how it works in XIV.