Tanks Letting DPS Die

[EaMett]

Sorry but if you pull aggro from him it's your fault. You might not like it but that's the order of things. Grabbing aggro is a pain for your entire party not just you. You could very well wait for the tank to build enmity before starting your rotation.
The fact that you can't dps fully is however on the tank. And if they can they should change how they play to allow you to go all out.

Somehow because the content is so easy people seem to forget this. If the mobs one shot you maybe you'd get it then. Loosing a few gcds or messing up your rotation is preferable to dying, costing the healer raise MP, heal MP, and dps gcds. Not to mention the tank running around, positionals, or the potential cleaving of other playersetc.. etc.. Pulling aggro is always on the dps.

[Wintersandman]

Sorry but if you pull aggro from him it's your fault. Pulling aggro is always on the dps.

I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

[ManuelBravo]

I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

However it is the DPS and healers job to go to tank if they get enmity not run around like a chicken with their heads cut off -.-. Now if your bringing them to tank and tank doesn't grab them that is just poor tanking. If regen effects are active while pulling they will agro healer right away. Tanks , healers, and dps should remove effect before pull. So in a way it's everyone's fault -.- I tank / heal / DPS as needed and from my experience it's just poor judgement and play style. Remember not everyone has the same type of experience and many people think they know their jobs and what to do..

[Ilan]

I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

If i tank a boss as a DRK i'll use my hate combo once at the start and thats usualy enough if the dps' are using diversion and so on properly and that means i'll leave tankstance and if everyone is doing their job properly i don't have to go back into tankstance again. If a dps is ripping hate of me in such a situation he is either completly overgeared compared to me, what results in me using more often the hate combo, or he is just a lazy joker who doesn't use his skills properly. I can understand that tanks let these jokers bite the dust because they are incredible annoying. I also understand tanks who get pissed off if someone always has to pull more mobs, except to maintain buffs etc.

What i don't understand are these tanks where the dps is doing nothing wrong and they still are not able to hold hate of 3 mobs and don't even care to keep hate.

[Wintersandman]

What i don't understand are these tanks where the dps is doing nothing wrong and they still are not able to hold hate of 3 mobs and don't even care to keep hate.

This is my point exactly to the person above who I quoted. I see two people responded to me but you had the most relevance to what I was rebuking. The person who said "Pulling aggro is always on the dps." I was just illustrating that DPS can use diversion and Lucid Dream(casters) but still gain threat from a tank. The dps shouldn't have to sacrifice their dps to appease a tank who doesn't want to do their job properly. Some tanks don't have to look at tank stance. But not all tanks are equal (same goes for DPS and healers).

[EaMett]

the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.
So no it isn't always on the dps.

I never said the tank was doing their job right. Or that they weren't being selfish. I'm saying it's your responsibility not to pull aggro as a DPS regardless of the tank you have. If you pull, it's always on you as a dps. You can cry all you want about how bad your tank is. The fact is YOU are the one pulling aggro and all that it entails. And -again- if this game were a bit harder and the mobs killed you consistently, YOU would be the dps contributing the least compared to the dps properly managing their aggro. Which again means that YOU fail at your role which is to contribute as much DPS as you can in that group setting. (as opposed to how much you can in a striking dummy setting)

Don't get me wrong. If your tank is capping your dps because they aren't building proper enmity. By all means call them out. But don't blame them for your mismanagement of aggro. (I get it, it's frustrating, especially if the tank is being a douche. Still your fault though).

I also addressed the healer aggro point earlier in my initial post FYI

[MauvaisOeil]

I never said the tank was doing their job right. Or that they weren't being selfish. I'm saying it's your responsibility not to pull aggro as a DPS regardless of the tank you have. If you pull, it's always on you as a dps. You can cry all you want about how bad your tank is. The fact is YOU are the one pulling aggro and all that it entails. And -again- if this game were a bit harder and the mobs killed you consistently, YOU would be the dps contributing the least compared to the dps properly managing their aggro. Which again means that YOU fail at your role which is to contribute as much DPS as you can in that group setting. (as opposed to how much you can in a striking dummy setting)

Don't get me wrong. If your tank is capping your dps because they aren't building proper enmity. By all means call them out. But don't blame them for your mismanagement of aggro. (I get it, it's frustrating, especially if the tank is being a douche. Still your fault though).

I also addressed the healer aggro point earlier in my initial post FYI

That said, it's a very subjective situation. The DPS will allways consider it's the tank fault of not enough threat combo if he pulls out, and the TANK will allways consider it's the DPS fault of not managing enmity with side tools.

What's the case with an undergeared tank forcing DPS stance and DPS combo with unsufficient threat ? Should his DPS be a priority over more geared DPS that pulls more threat than he can sustain with only damaging abilities ?

A BLM that focus one target with Fire IV all the day down during multiple target pulls, and not aoeing while the other DPS and the tank/heal are, is the tank responsible of focusing a sole target with 100% of his DPS instead of spreading it as the tank spread his threat ?


Sadly, things are subjective to one's point of view and consideration of his own pleasure over everyone else's.

[Wintersandman]

I'm saying it's your responsibility not to pull aggro as a DPS regardless of the tank you have.

Yeah you are like talking to a brick wall. It is a team based game and it is up to both roles to fulfill their obligations. I have been an undergeared tank and I tell people to please watch aggro. But I stay in tank stance and do what I need to do. I switch to dps when it is appropriate. It is ludicrous to say "don't dps and just stand there twiddling your thumbs to make sure you don't get aggro because I don't want to switch stances or do my enmity combo". That's essentially what you're saying if the DPS have already used Diversion and Lucid Dream (if applicable).

If you were one shot by mobs because you pulled aggro there would be a lot more vote kicks/drops. It wouldn't change behavior of the DPS, they would get a tank who knew better.

[Venoshock]

That said, it's a very subjective situation. The DPS will allways consider it's the tank fault of not enough threat combo if he pulls out, and the TANK will allways consider it's the DPS fault of not managing enmity with side tools.

What's the case with an undergeared tank forcing DPS stance and DPS combo with unsufficient threat ? Should his DPS be a priority over more geared DPS that pulls more threat than he can sustain with only damaging abilities ?

A BLM that focus one target with Fire IV all the day down during multiple target pulls, and not aoeing while the other DPS and the tank/heal are, is the tank responsible of focusing a sole target with 100% of his DPS instead of spreading it as the tank spread his threat ?


Sadly, things are subjective to one's point of view and consideration of his own pleasure over everyone else's.

It isn't subjective at all really, well from the points you brought up anyway.

If a tank is clearly undegeared especially when the dps over gear him by a considerable amount of Ilevel. The tank should take that into consideration when establishing hate and switching into DPS stance. The DPS should also be using their aggro dump CDs and if they are and the tanks lose hate , it's objectively the tanks fault.

A BLM that single targets in a multiple mob pull, it's the BLMs fault if they pull hate. No question. Like, wtf are you doing? fire 2? flare? thunder 4? foul? learn your damn class. This goes for any DPS class used by an idiot who thinks trying to attack 1 enemy out of the 10 that are beating on the tank when they have AOE is a good idea.

Nothing subjective here, mate.

[Ekimmak]

I think the most likely case for me losing aggro in current content is the moss walls in temple of the fist.

It takes a really unpleasant position to get the mobs as close as possible, and enemies that spawn don't get added to my threat list, so there can be mosslings running around I can't see, because the camera is shoved up my character's backside and there's 10 people blocking my view (as well as whatever ground targeted barrier/heal mechanic I have on me).

If I lose a mob, I will do everything in my power to bring it back. Because I'm not picking a tank for its personal DPS, I should be focused first and foremost on tanking. The only time I've let a DPS die is when they specifically ran ahead before a battle is finished and aggro'd a group of enemies (specifically, the second honey wall in the saint's arbotoreum) when I said "Do not pull that until the current group is dead". Could I have handled that? Dunno, wasn't feeling confident. So if a DPS thinks they know better, they can tank it.