Many other jobs are getting old skills back...

[Azerhan]

ITT: make WAR grossly OP like back in HW, and DRK such a close second that PLD is once again completely shunned by the community.

Stop whinging and deal with your job changes, or switch to something else that you like.

Wow. Top kek.

Luckily you are not a developer from SE...

[MahoSenshi]

WAR/DRK lost something old and gain something new. PLD lost and gain... some of it back. I agree that some changes would be nice, but fear that in the end it will be DPS race again. But now everybody will have exclusive PLD toys like Awareness, so no point in bring one at all. Both DRK and WAR are better MTs already, with one of them being top OT HW situation will repeat.

[Gravton]

Did you read my first sentence then stop? I was pretty detailed in my analysis. The skills pld lost are in the second sentence. My pld could use them in HW, it can't in SB. You want your skills back / reworked. All of the tanks are about even on dps, but you want war & drk dps to go up with pld remaining the same. You want war to get their offensive kit back AND keep the def kit they are now getting from pld. The only thing I agree with, is that drk does need one more def cd at mid lvl for running dungeons. You have no idea why making war/drk better will make pld worthless? Were you a pld through HW? This is a dps game and you are asking to increase the dps on 2 tanks and not the other...

[whiskeybravo]

Brutal Swing/Low Blow: They didn't want ogcd stuns with damage anymore for the possibility of using stun as a boss mechanic again. And even if the damage was removed and the skills remain, it would just be a case of button bloat because nobody would use them.

So nobody uses shield swipe then? Wrong. People used it all the time. And if that's the case, again, tell me WHY PLD GOT TO KEEP THEIRS. Why not just modify brutal swing/low kick to be like PLD's stun? That way people who have it slotted normally get another role slot instead of being forced to pick and choose unlike PLD?

I'd just like to point out that, while PLD did keep shield swipe, it's not a stun. Brutal Swing and Low Blow were both oGCD stuns weaved into dps rotation... I think the more proper comparison would be to Spirit's Within which had it's silence effect removed. Now, they could've left WAR and DRK with the ability but just removed stun effect, that's debatable at least. But I don't really consider button bloat as a valid excuse. I have just enough slots on DRK, more than enough slots on WAR, and not enough slots on PLD. PLD has 2-3 too many abilities to fit them all on controller. Why get it just right on the other 2 but leave so much bloat on PLD?

[Aana]

Why get it just right on the other 2 but leave so much bloat on PLD?

The real crux is that both drk and war have stance locked abilities. You have enough space on war because Equiallibrium, FC, Decimate, Inner Release all have 'second' abilities in defiance. They are earned at different levels, they are separate abilities, they just don't take up extra space on your bars. Drk has fewer, but still a couple. Pld has zero stance locked abilities putting everything they own on the bar at once. If you add 4 more abilities to War hotbars, it would get pretty tight too just like pld is.

The number of abilities is about the same. War/Drk just don't have them all on their bar simultaneously. It doesn't 'feel' like decimate and steel cyclone are different abilities as the function so similar, but technically they are. Pld doesn't get that space efficiency.

[whiskeybravo]

The number of abilities is about the same. War/Drk just don't have them all on their bar simultaneously. It doesn't 'feel' like decimate and steel cyclone are different abilities as the function so similar, but technically they are. Pld doesn't get that space efficiency.

That was easily solved by a macro that swapped FC/Decimate for IB/SC pre-SB, but it is a valid point I suppose. The fact remains, there is enough space for sprint+potion on War, Sprint for DRK, but on PLD I'd have to remove 4 PLD abilities to make room for sprint+potion (I have to chose 2 PLD abilities to leave off without even considering sprint+potion). They could've streamlined this better but chose not to, for whatever reason.

[Aana]

That was easily solved by a macro that swapped FC/Decimate for IB/SC pre-SB, but it is a valid point I suppose. The fact remains, there is enough space for sprint+potion on War, Sprint for DRK, but on PLD I'd have to remove 4 PLD abilities to make room for sprint+potion (I have to chose 2 PLD abilities to leave off without even considering sprint+potion). They could've streamlined this better but chose not to, for whatever reason.

I have learned to love the cross hot bar from hitting both L+R. With 2 regular bars and the 'half' extra bar, I find it really manageable. Still only toggle between 2 bars but easy access to 40 buttons. I just keep rarely used specific items on the cross. Markers, potion, LB, immunity, etc. Just an idea because removing actions all together from your play is never good.

[Erin_Singh]

Did you read my first sentence then stop? I was pretty detailed in my analysis. The skills pld lost are in the second sentence. My pld could use them in HW, it can't in SB. You want your skills back / reworked. All of the tanks are about even on dps, but you want war & drk dps to go up with pld remaining the same. You want war to get their offensive kit back AND keep the def kit they are now getting from pld. The only thing I agree with, is that drk does need one more def cd at mid lvl for running dungeons. You have no idea why making war/drk better will make pld worthless? Were you a pld through HW? This is a dps game and you are asking to increase the dps on 2 tanks and not the other...

"From class actions to role actions pld lost bloodbath, mercy stroke, fracture, foresight, and stoneskin."

Those are not Paladin skills, those were cross class skills. We are talking about exclusive skills, like drk's delirium, or scourge.

And even then:
-bloodbath: it was a War skill (Disappeared for all tanks) Was considered good
-mercy stroke: War skill (Disappeared for all tanks) Was too niche too be really useful
-fracture: War skill (Disappeared for all tanks) Was bad
-foresight: War skill (Disappeared for all tanks) Was not great ? But better than nothing
-stoneskin: Whm skill (Disappeared for all healers and Paladin) Don't know what was Stoneskin cast time but I remember it clipped a lot on gcds, so it was clunky to use. (plus, boss could break your cast)

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

If goring blade's dot was its own skill it'd be useless like Fracture.

It actually wouldn't be, since the DoT portion is stronger than PLD's average rotational potency by a good margin, and changing it to a single button also wouldn't change PLD's rotation too much.

Fracture was a trash skill because in order for it to be a dps gain, it needed to be active on the boss and get every single tick for that entire 30 seconds. It also delayed stack building and if even one DoT tick got interrupted by the boss going invuln, it was worthless. Even then, with perfect managing of fracture, it was something like 1% or less dps gain over just ignoring it. If it was ever brought back, it'd need to be stapled to Storm's Eye like how Goring blade is currently, or it'd need major potency buffs and/or large beast gauge generation to be worth it.

I do agree that DRK could stand to either get an ability or two it used to have back, or get a new one/modify current ones to help it's current situation, as with current known 4.1 changes, it's about to lose on basically every front to PLD/WAR. Honestly, the only thing WAR could use from it's old set is Bloodbath. Foresight was basically obsoleted with WAR gaining Rampart, Fracture would need to be heavily modified if it were to make a comeback or it'd be an instantly dead skill, and mercy stroke was basically a very limited OGCD.

[Gravton]

"From class actions to role actions pld lost bloodbath, mercy stroke, fracture, foresight, and stoneskin."

Those are not Paladin skills, those were cross class skills. We are talking about exclusive skills, like drk's delirium, or scourge.

We are talking in circles. If pld could use them in HW and can't use them now...then we lost them. What does pld gain from role actions that they didn't have in HW? What does war/drk gain from role actions? You want both. Your not asking for these skills to be put on the role list. You want them straight into the jobs and keep what pld is giving. So your asking to bring back the old class system but this time we should exclude pld because reasons.

So in a nutshell war/drk should keep what they lost plus the 5 skills from role actions. Pld should only keep what they had with nothing additional. That seems fair and balanced to you?