Many other jobs are getting old skills back...

[Tegernako]

Now please consider giving back some of the 11 skills that were robbed from WAR/DRK and replaced with either completely garbage skills that don't even begin to make up for their loss or their complete removal with nothing given in return.


I don't understand the logic in removing skills because A) to complicated or B) were only used "for dps" when PLD had no skills removed that it can't get back and skills like Shield Swipe which are only ever used for DPS still exist on PLD. The argument that PLD should get to keep shield bash for instance because it's "not OGCD and is used properly" doesn't make sense when all you had to do to make Low Kick/Brutal Swing work the same way...was to make the GCD just like PLD. Their removal makes no sense unless you just wanted ways to nerf those two classes without putting much effort into remaking the jobs. (And Shield Swipe is literally Reprisal but PLD got to keep it even though Reprisal was far more important on DRK)

And if they were "too complicated" then why not remove SOME and re-adjust OTHERS so that they work together better instead of removing everything, especially skills with unique and standout animations?


Foresight, Fracture, Bloodbath, Brutal Swing, and Mercy Stroke Shadowskin, Scourge, Low Blow, Reprisal, Dark Dance, Delirium.

That's a lot of skills that are either gone permanently or were replaced with mockeries. If Succor and miasma and such can make a come back, so can some of these skills.

And for god's sake, even if you don't do it for WAR. At least do it for DRK.

[Aletin]

Foresight, Fracture, Bloodbath, Brutal Swing, and Mercy Stroke Shadowskin, Scourge, Low Blow, Reprisal, Dark Dance, Delirium.

Foresight: Would need to be changed at a fundamental level, +20% defence only gets stronger. At the start of HW it was about 6% reduction, by the end it was 12/13% and if left as is would probably be about 20% now with how exponential defence was while levelling.

Fracture: Literally a trash skill.

Bloodbath: An imbalanced skill that pushes War ahead of the other tanks significantly by allowing them to heal without a healer and without punishing themself at all. Even if it was given to all tanks, it would still be much better on War than Pld or Drk

Brutal Swing/Low Blow: They didn't want ogcd stuns with damage anymore for the possibility of using stun as a boss mechanic again. And even if the damage was removed and the skills remain, it would just be a case of button bloat because nobody would use them.

Mercy Stroke: Just a 200 potency attack every 40/90s and only executable under 20% Boss HP. The additional effect is pointless, therefore is just another button to press for damage.

Shadowskin: Literally Rampart, which Pld lost too, they were consolidated and added to role skills

Scourge: 500 POTENCY. Like jesus, that's a Fell Cleave. If Drk now lost about 500 potency over 30s then sure, you'd have another button to press for something you already have, but as it stands, Drk just doesn't need a DoT. And I fail to see why people think every class needs one, everyone complains about homogenization but they want all classes to have DoTs to manage and all have buffs to manage, jobs can just be different, this way adds diversity.

Reprisal: This was removed (along with Storm's Path old effect) because the damage reduction was simply too good. Any damage reduction that can be placed upon the boss instantly pushes them ahead of the others, tanks, healers or dps. It applies to all. That's why damage reduction was placed inside roll skills. If this is about the damage, its just another button that makes another roll skill (anticipation) required and also requires the Drk to be tanking. I wouldn't be opposed to Shield Swipe being removed either, but hey, SE does strange things like imbalance the already well balanced spectrum of jobs.

Dark Dance: This is the one I am personally surprised at most. People have been complaining about this skill since day 1 Drk because it was "anti-synergistic" with Blood Price and that "30% Parry is shit" and suddenly because it's gone people want it back. It became more useless now that Reprisal is gone, and was already super weak anyway.

Delirium:
Int Down Portion -> See Reprisal
Rest of Skill Portion -> The issue is, it would have to generate blood, otherwise SE is better, say they both generate 10 blood, why have them both? You would only use the one that does more damage anyway. Unless you want "Spam Delirium unless using DA" but again, that's just an unnecessary button, it would be the same skill wise to spam the one combo

[Tegernako]

Foresight: Would need to be changed at a fundamental level, +20% defence only gets stronger. At the start of HW it was about 6% reduction, by the end it was 12/13% and if left as is would probably be about 20% now with how exponential defence was while levelling.

Yeah. That's kind of the basis of what I am asking for. Reworks before just trashing a skill or giving us a 100% worse version that EVERY tank gets.

Fracture: Literally a trash skill.

If goring blade's dot was its own skill it'd be useless like Fracture. But it's not. So why not rework fracture to act like goring blade? Why just dump the skill because "it's to complicated"

Bloodbath: An imbalanced skill that pushes War ahead of the other tanks significantly by allowing them to heal without a healer and without punishing themself at all. Even if it was given to all tanks, it would still be much better on War than Pld or Drk

Also a class defining skills that meshes perfectly with the design goal and concept of warrior and gives it a strong self identity and utility.

Brutal Swing/Low Blow: They didn't want ogcd stuns with damage anymore for the possibility of using stun as a boss mechanic again. And even if the damage was removed and the skills remain, it would just be a case of button bloat because nobody would use them.

So nobody uses shield swipe then? Wrong. People used it all the time. And if that's the case, again, tell me WHY PLD GOT TO KEEP THEIRS. Why not just modify brutal swing/low kick to be like PLD's stun? That way people who have it slotted normally get another role slot instead of being forced to pick and choose unlike PLD?

Mercy Stroke: Just a 200 potency attack every 40/90s and only executable under 20% Boss HP. The additional effect is pointless, therefore is just another button to press for damage.

So modify it or rework it instead of just dumping it.

Shadowskin: Literally Rampart, which Pld lost too, they were consolidated and added to role skills

DRK desperately needs more defensive CD's and giving it shadowskin along side rampart and its other CD would not break the class. And PLD didn't lose any skill. It can slot back EVERYTHING it lost. DRK and WAR can not do that. Don't even try to compare it.

Scourge: 500 POTENCY. Like jesus, that's a Fell Cleave. If Drk now lost about 500 potency over 30s then sure, you'd have another button to press for something you already have, but as it stands, Drk just doesn't need a DoT. And I fail to see why people think every class needs one, everyone complains about homogenization but they want all classes to have DoTs to manage and all have buffs to manage, jobs can just be different, this way adds diversity.

People loved the animation and additional damage. Calculate Scourge into DRK's overall damage and it goes up by a nice amount. It's not some joke move

Reprisal: This was removed (along with Storm's Path old effect) because the damage reduction was simply too good. Any damage reduction that can be placed upon the boss instantly pushes them ahead of the others, tanks, healers or dps. It applies to all. That's why damage reduction was placed inside roll skills. If this is about the damage, its just another button that makes another roll skill (anticipation) required and also requires the Drk to be tanking. I wouldn't be opposed to Shield Swipe being removed either, but hey, SE does strange things like imbalance the already well balanced spectrum of jobs.

So, explain to me what's wrong with having a skill that's really good? Should they remove sentimental on PLD? Nerf clemency? Reduce damage on royal road? When you remove massive assets to a job and DO NOTHING to compensate for it you nerf a job, often times beyond what's really needed. DRK is struggling right now. Does anyone debate this? Would reprisal being in its arsenal make it OP?

Dark Dance: This is the one I am personally surprised at most. People have been complaining about this skill since day 1 Drk because it was "anti-synergistic" with Blood Price and that "30% Parry is shit" and suddenly because it's gone people want it back. It became more useless now that Reprisal is gone, and was already super weak anyway.

You didn't talk to everyone who played the class so how would it surprise you that after only hearing a minority of people, that others would speak up after its gone? And again, WHY NOT CHANGE IT INSTEAD OF JUST REMOVING IT?

Delirium:
Int Down Portion -> See Reprisal

See my sentences where I point out that new reprisal is utter garbage in comparison and by removing it you not only make it have less combos then the other tanks but also remove utility (without replacing it nerfing the job even more), and remove job idenity (DRK is not a magic tank anymore).


Rest of Skill Portion -> The issue is, it would have to generate blood, otherwise SE is better, say they both generate 10 blood, why have them both? You would only use the one that does more damage anyway. Unless you want "Spam Delirium unless using DA" but again, that's just an unnecessary button, it would be the same skill wise to spam the one combo

Or you could modify the combo like how they did for PLD but...shocker did for no other tank class.

Yeah...so thoughts in quote.

The fact is, the removal or changes to these skills gave nerf after nerf after nerf to DRK and WAR with essentially ZERO replacements.

[Azerhan]

snip

I agree and disagree at the same time.
I really want Scourge and Delirium back - DRK is really boring now, with just 1-DA2-DA3 until DABloodspiller smash... It's like a 3.X WAR but without the fun and the dps - but if we still have now all our skills... Look at our ath, we already have too much skill.
Maybe we should replace some of it with Scourge and Delirium. Like Sole Survivor - this skill is really... Well, until you have an add, for example, and you NEED to recover HP at the really end of the add... But, healer can do that without any problem for others tanks, and I ask to all DRK here: do you use SS everytime when you can, or when you remember you have this skill?
For my part, I would trade this skill for Scourge. I'm pretty sure the loss of dps since SB for the DRK can be bring back with the return of Scourge.

At least we'll smash another button, it's already a gameplay's gain...

[Tegernako]

Azerhan like I said, they should rework skills first to flow more naturally or combine them before simply dumping them because "to complicated" or "only used for dps gains" because if you simply remove them you nerf heavily while giving nothing in return.

If you think about it, nearly all of DRK's issues would be non issues had they kept its old skills. It's only by removing those skills and giving nothing to replace them that DRK fell so hard.

[Azerhan]

Azerhan like I said, they should rework skills first to flow more naturally or combine them before simply dumping them because "to complicated" or "only used for dps gains" because if you simply remove them you nerf heavily while giving nothing in return.

If you think about it, nearly all of DRK's issues would be non issues had they kept its old skills. It's only by removing those skills and giving nothing to replace them that DRK fell so hard.

Yes, it's true (I miss a lot of capacity of the DRK, trust me ), but it's the case for most jobs in the game.
But I cringe alot about the gameplay of the DRK, I feel it very boring, and during the same time, WAR is really fun to play.

[whiskeybravo]

Brutal Swing/Low Blow: They didn't want ogcd stuns with damage anymore for the possibility of using stun as a boss mechanic again. And even if the damage was removed and the skills remain, it would just be a case of button bloat because nobody would use them.

So nobody uses shield swipe then? Wrong. People used it all the time. And if that's the case, again, tell me WHY PLD GOT TO KEEP THEIRS. Why not just modify brutal swing/low kick to be like PLD's stun? That way people who have it slotted normally get another role slot instead of being forced to pick and choose unlike PLD?

I'd just like to point out that, while PLD did keep shield swipe, it's not a stun. Brutal Swing and Low Blow were both oGCD stuns weaved into dps rotation... I think the more proper comparison would be to Spirit's Within which had it's silence effect removed. Now, they could've left WAR and DRK with the ability but just removed stun effect, that's debatable at least. But I don't really consider button bloat as a valid excuse. I have just enough slots on DRK, more than enough slots on WAR, and not enough slots on PLD. PLD has 2-3 too many abilities to fit them all on controller. Why get it just right on the other 2 but leave so much bloat on PLD?

[Aana]

Why get it just right on the other 2 but leave so much bloat on PLD?

The real crux is that both drk and war have stance locked abilities. You have enough space on war because Equiallibrium, FC, Decimate, Inner Release all have 'second' abilities in defiance. They are earned at different levels, they are separate abilities, they just don't take up extra space on your bars. Drk has fewer, but still a couple. Pld has zero stance locked abilities putting everything they own on the bar at once. If you add 4 more abilities to War hotbars, it would get pretty tight too just like pld is.

The number of abilities is about the same. War/Drk just don't have them all on their bar simultaneously. It doesn't 'feel' like decimate and steel cyclone are different abilities as the function so similar, but technically they are. Pld doesn't get that space efficiency.

[whiskeybravo]

The number of abilities is about the same. War/Drk just don't have them all on their bar simultaneously. It doesn't 'feel' like decimate and steel cyclone are different abilities as the function so similar, but technically they are. Pld doesn't get that space efficiency.

That was easily solved by a macro that swapped FC/Decimate for IB/SC pre-SB, but it is a valid point I suppose. The fact remains, there is enough space for sprint+potion on War, Sprint for DRK, but on PLD I'd have to remove 4 PLD abilities to make room for sprint+potion (I have to chose 2 PLD abilities to leave off without even considering sprint+potion). They could've streamlined this better but chose not to, for whatever reason.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

If goring blade's dot was its own skill it'd be useless like Fracture.

It actually wouldn't be, since the DoT portion is stronger than PLD's average rotational potency by a good margin, and changing it to a single button also wouldn't change PLD's rotation too much.

Fracture was a trash skill because in order for it to be a dps gain, it needed to be active on the boss and get every single tick for that entire 30 seconds. It also delayed stack building and if even one DoT tick got interrupted by the boss going invuln, it was worthless. Even then, with perfect managing of fracture, it was something like 1% or less dps gain over just ignoring it. If it was ever brought back, it'd need to be stapled to Storm's Eye like how Goring blade is currently, or it'd need major potency buffs and/or large beast gauge generation to be worth it.

I do agree that DRK could stand to either get an ability or two it used to have back, or get a new one/modify current ones to help it's current situation, as with current known 4.1 changes, it's about to lose on basically every front to PLD/WAR. Honestly, the only thing WAR could use from it's old set is Bloodbath. Foresight was basically obsoleted with WAR gaining Rampart, Fracture would need to be heavily modified if it were to make a comeback or it'd be an instantly dead skill, and mercy stroke was basically a very limited OGCD.