Dear Healers who don't DPS

[MoroMurasaki]

smart things

I think this is perfectly reasonable. Personally it was one of the things I really enjoyed about Cleric Stance, I knew if I didn't see that showing up on a cohealer's bar then it was up to me to output DPS. I much prefer the cooperative style for numerous reasons (CD rotation, limiting overheal, etc.) but when you don't or can't have the required level of communication with your cohealer Cleric Stance filled that role for you in a super basic way.

Speaking of cohealing I don't understand how in 8man content anyone could ever make the argument that healer DPS should be anything but expected- this is content that has all been solo healed at one point or another meaning it only requires one dedicated healer. Now I know we are not all world firsters but if someone with a lot of skill can do the healing work of two healers while also contributing some level of personal DPS I don't understand how any sane person who has played this game can argue that it is alright for two healers to stand around doing nothing because "something might happen"... it just completely stumps me.

I can understand in sub-30 dungeons (you know when you're actually new and learning the very basics of the game, you don't even have a job stone yet) how the expectation for healer DPS could intimidate the very new playera but at the end of the day the people arguing in this thread are not part of that demographic.

So no I don't think you're jaded Cassandra, I think that any healer entering 8man content should understand part of their job is to do some damage. They have made it through 50 levels of healing (okay, 20 for SCH) and that is more than enough time to learn you can hit Tab to focus on an emeny then toss out a DoT or throw a rock at them before switching back to the tank. Hell in most 8man content the majority of my heals are AoE and performed while focused on the boss because I don't even need to be targeting a party member.

Point is we can argue about super low level dungeons all day. I think healers should still be encouraged to DPS to build the habit but to each their own. Anything 50 and up though... there is no excuse. They are not new. If they would like a carry they are more than welcome to open a PF and ask for one.

You people have been argueing about this for 65 pages.
65 pages of argueing over something you won't ever agree on.

Lel.

66 pages now tyvm

[era1Ne]

Unlike you're claiming, no one here has said otherwise (of course I may have missed a post, in which case feel free to correct me). On the contrary, it's very often brought up that players who are new to the job (or content) are not and should not expected to DPS (even though it is useful to start learning it as early as possible ). So unless I'm very much mistaken, your argument is a strawman.

Edit: Trying to find some proof for my argument really quick...

You found 4 post and there are probably more that support your post, but this is an thread or discussion with much more different opinions and some of them have an really toxic one towards healers. An question i always wanted to ask, is how do you see the difference between an "lazy, netflix watching" healer and someone who is an new healer? You can clear content as an black mage and then try it as an healer after all...

You're remembering wrong then, because many here have advocated for more healing checks or something that necessitates greater emphasis on healing. Until such adjustments are made, we aren't going to support gimping your role because you dislike how healing jobs play in FFXIV. If you're refusing to DPS as a healer, you fall into three categories:

Many is not all, so how can you say i remember wrong? Also i love healing and dealing dmg in this game and recommend to try it to everyone who asks me for help as an healer, since you help the group and in the meantime get better at healing aswell. At the same time, i just understand that there are indeed valid reasons not do dps (as much), because talking to new healers showed me that they have most of the time an confident and experience issue. Which is completely ignored when someone compares healer dps to an dd doing his rotation for example. Mistakes in a rotation can't cause a wipe most of the time.

A healer being new on the job and doing zero DPS due to a lack of confidence, is a valid reason... Many DPSing healer are not taking that into account, or just won't plain accept it as a valid reason : which is not the same as a "reasonnable argument"...
I really want to point out how some people here only consider the "technical" aspect of the problem (no DPS = loss of efficiency) and totally ignore the "personal" aspect of that problem (new, unconfident, lack of time to play, not skilled...).

This is what i wanted to say aswell.

There is no need to look back in the thread : you're saying it...



To which anti-DPS will easily answer : YoshiP sides with us....

Anyway, read the rest of my previous post, needed to do an edit to pass the 1000 char limits....

I don't really agree with the "yoship said" argument, since some quotes are taking out of context for example. It is an fact that healer dps can help the group and clear content, even tho dmg check and enrage aren't calculated with healer dmg in mind. I remember some of the "anti dps" using this fact as an argument to say, healers don't need to dps, but they are completely ignoring that during progress people will die and then healer dps can help to prevent the enrage. So in theory it is absolutely true that healers don't need to dps, because healer dps is ignored in those calculcation, but in reality you can clear content faster, if both healers do dmg and heal together.

[Miste]

There are a bunch of SB interviews in which YoshiP clearly states that he and his team do not like healer focusing too much on DPS. They did remove the stance dance to make it easier for those who wanted, but clearly double pointed out that it was not mandatory.

I think what Taika is pointing out is that what YoshiP said just doesn't make any difference in this case. Just because healer DPS isn't mandatory from the game developer standpoint doesn't mean it isn't objectively the better thing to do instead of overhealing or standing idle for long periods of time. Simply how this game is designed doing zero DPS on a healer is objectively playing extremely sub-optimal. What the developers are saying they prefer and how the game currently functions are two separate things.

Also of course YoshiP would say "it isn't mandatory"... he isn't going to tell people paying SE money to play this game that anything to do with play style choice is mandatory. Ever. No matter what he personally thinks on the matter (except buying the game and paying subscription fees anyway). It would be bad for PR. It would be sort of like going into McDonald's ready to spend your money on some nuggets and they tell you it is mandatory you buy the BigMac because it is the best burger.

The company will never force that on a customer even if the BigMac was factually (for the sake of argument) the best burger on the planet they still wouldn't do it. They want to make money so they let the buyer choose what they want instead of making ultimatums. Obviously there is a limit, but SE will only put their foot down and refuse to budge when it is something they really cannot oblige even if it would make the customer happier.

You have to remember that nothing in this game is technically mandatory. Which is why Taika said it was not relevant to the discussion about playing healer at least somewhat optimal. What you wish to achieve makes certain things mandatory, but if it wasn't for you to achieve anything then you technically have no personal obligations. Unfortunately with DF it isn't only about "personal" obligations because there are more people in there than just you.

If I didn't use Flash on tank because the animation hurt my eyes do you think SE would ban me over it even though I cannot hold hate on all mobs all the time? Nope. The group I am with either will decide to deal with it or kick me. SE isn't going to tell me "using Flash is mandatory on GLD/PLD. The community that has to deal with me losing hate all the time might say that though and in DF majority rules so whatever the majority deems mandatory then you either have to compromise, leave, or get kicked if it ends up people cannot come to some sort of agreement.

The company though? Nah. In their eyes all the abilities and spells in the game are optional based on the person playing it. They will not interfere with a player's play style choices in such a way unless a player openly admits to purposefully playing badly in order to grief others. That is the only time they will step in.

Community can't say a pure healer is a bad/inefficient/(pick whatever negative adjective you want) healer if the game dev didn't make healer DPS mandatory. I honestly have a hard time understanding how people can't get this simple fact.

The reason so many of us, in your mind, don't understand that simple fact... is because it isn't a fact.

The real fact is that no matter what the dev team "says about the game" it has to reflect in "how they develop the game" otherwise it is simply their opinion and not a fact about how the game is designed. You need to drop this "it's not mandatory" argument. It really has no bearing on the fact that the game is designed in a way that not DPSing on healer is sub-optimal.

The argument isn't about us forcing healer DPS to be mandatory, the argument is that healer DPS, with how the game is currently designed, is beneficial, easily utilized, and it is objectively better than doing no DPS at all; therefore it should be something that all healers strive to do in order to fully contribute to their team.

I believe I also already clarified this to you before as well.

Objectively this is how the game is designed unfortunately so despite what you've said a healer that uses their whole toolkit to contribute as much as possible is objectively better at playing their class than someone who doesn't...which is the same for every role and job. If someone as a pure healer can do 4000 HPS (but 0 DPS) and then another healer does 4000 HPS (but also contributed 1000 DPS), then which player is better? Objectively the one who contributed more is better at their class because they kept the party alive with the 4000 HPS but also did 1000 DPS at the same time which helped the group.

So yes, factually you can say that a healer that does zero DPS is "inefficient" or "unskilled" it is not about putting people down or belittling them it is just a fact about the game design. As you can see I am not calling people out by name and declaring them bad. I am simply talking about the facts of the game design and looking at it objectively.

It is basically the same as real life trades. If there are two electricians working in a newly built house and both of them do the same job onsite of setting up a light fixture in identical bedrooms of said house and Electrician A only made one mistake and it took him 10 mins to set it up, but Electrician B made around four mistakes and it took him 30 mins to set it up. As an outsider looking in and making an objective observation....Who was more skilled in this case? Who was more efficient? It is just a simple fact of life when it comes to differing skill levels on certain tasks.

Cars can easily go faster than 55mph. If you want to be efficient with your car, you better drive it at 70mph, since it can go that fast. State patrol could arrest you if you went above 55mph, but who cares, they're never watching, and actually won't even say a thing if they do happen to catch you speeding. Hell, even state patrol is driving way above 70mph... So it's a common thing for everybody to be driving at 70mph on that 55mph road. Then, you encounter someone who is driving at 55 mph... because there was that one sign that was saying so : would that be considered as bad driving ?
If you happen to stop that driver and start arguing with him, it will be the same thing as in this thread.

This analogy makes no sense for the situation unfortunately.

For one you won't get arrested irl or in-game for DPSing on a healer. Two there are no "speed limits" in-game when it comes to healer DPS, beyond the mark of simply not letting people die, so the analogy would make more sense if it was a road with no speed limits (except an extreme high end one that would cause death if attempted) which gives you the choice on how fast you can go and the traffic was going at 60-70km/h (not the fastest but a quick pace that doesn't suffer from being overly dangerous) while a subset was going anywhere from 10-20km/h and some of the 60-70km/h people simply asked the 10-20km/h people why they choose to go so slowly because they could safely go quicker to get to their destination quicker. (sorry for using km, but I am Canadian so I don't know mph very well)

I mean people will have varying answers, but this analogy in the end still doesn't work so it doesn't really matter what their answer would be because a bunch of cars driving on a road very rarely have the same exact destination and therefore they don't highly interact with each other, nor would they likely need to ask why another was going so slowly, and there are usually ways to simply pass by the ones going slower and go quicker to the destination on your own.

Unlike in DF where everyone's primary end destination is the same and should be to get to the end of the dungeon and clear it and everyone has to rely on everyone else to actually get there. A DPS cannot just run and go into the passing lane and go ahead to the destination alone for example.

Cars all traveling separately on a road don't rely on each other to get to their end destination in a general sense because their end destination is not the same. If you wanted to make an analogy about it compared to DF I would say that the car itself would be the DF group. Multiple integrated integral parts that have to work together to achieve a goal. If one of those parts is broken the car might break down. If one of those parts is not functioning properly the other parts may have to work harder to avoid a break down to try keep the car running. If one of those parts goes slower than the rest and does not contribute as much power as it could then the other parts may have to work harder to make up for it and the car has to travel for a longer period of time to get to the destination which may cause more wear and tear for the other parts and also make the car late on arrival depending on the situation.

[Kabooa]

Cars all traveling separately on a road don't rely on each other..

Traffic. You kind of rely on other people not being devastatingly bad to get anywhere in populated areas. I think that's a fitting metaphor for Duty Finder. It takes active, conscious effort to be such an anchor that you prevent people from clearing content in a fair amount of time, or from completing it at all.

[era1Ne]

Exactly, it's not fair if the healer gives 20% while everyone else is giving 100%.

People who argue that they don't need to DPS need to take a tour in the Hall of the Novice.

Alright, the healer giving only 17% while everyone else giving 72-77% then. :P

Pushing buttons is NOT giving 70 or 100%. You can literally press one button as an dd all the time and watch netflix. How does this make you better than an healer only healing? He has to at least watch the hp of the tank and react with an healing spell. This whole "but they stay afk, while every dd hits buttons"- argument is just ignorant.

[MoroMurasaki]

Pushing buttons is NOT giving 70 or 100%. You can literally press one button as an dd all the time and watch netflix. How does this make you better than an healer only healing? He has to at least watch the hp of the tank and react with an healing spell.

The difference here is that there is no tank, healer or DPS that would defend a DPS pushing one button and watching netflix. For some reason people still clamor to defend a zero DPS healer.

[era1Ne]

The difference here is that there is no tank, healer or DPS that would defend a DPS pushing one button and watching netflix. For some reason people still clamor to defend a zero DPS healer.

Thats your assumption. Yesterday an friend of mine got blamed, because she couldn't heal the group up, while they didn't kill the add and got one shot in haukke (hard) because they didn't do their dd job, despite them "pushing buttons". I've encountert stuff like this myself in the past. Althought this is relativ rare. For instance, i was as an tank in wall and then the dd couldn't kill those low hp adds in time and we wiped. The first sentence of them was "tank/heal why didn't you attack the add". Ignoring completely that even with a few random buttons/attacks those adds are killable. Hey you can kill them solo as a tank.

Ofc only pushing one button in the previous post was exaggerate, but they are not giving 100% and you can't use "pushing buttons" as an argument really. Would be the same as saying an healer using vita every gcd is considert doing more than an healer thinking about his heals and than standing around, because he is scared or something. In other words an healer not using his aoe heals and using vita to heal the group up, would be worse imo, despite him pushing more buttons than the other maybe inexperienced, insecure, ... healer.

[Kabooa]

The difference here is that there is no tank, healer or DPS that would defend a DPS pushing one button and watching netflix. For some reason people still clamor to defend a zero DPS healer.

I can only speak personally in that I find going "WTF" to my monitor is all the stress relief I need when I run into the Terror Pug that these threads seem to perpetuate as some common occurrence.

Finishing a couple minutes slower won't break my day, and a sub-optimal DPS or a slow tank is going to annoy me far more than Miss/Mr. "IF THE BARS AREN'T FULL WE'RE GOING TO DIE"

Also, the sub-optimal point on Tanks and DPS is pretty spot on.

It's damn easy to be sub-optimal on a DPS class and have it fly under the radar for most people. A samurai can do it with just their basic combos and Iaijutsu, a black mage can do it with just doing a basic Fire/Ice rotation, a Ninja can do it by doing basic weapon combos and a ninjutsu...

It's not that I defend '0 derps healers', only that I don't understand why they get -so much hate- compared to the, basically same, performance of the Derps and Turnks.

[Miste]

Traffic. You kind of rely on other people not being devastatingly bad to get anywhere in populated areas. I think that's a fitting metaphor for Duty Finder. .

I meant they do not usually rely on each other when it comes to getting to a destination. Maybe in rush hour, but that is an entirely different situation where everyone is stuck going around the same speed if not completely stopped due to congestion (this doesn't happen in FFXIV DF content itself...only maybe the queue times lol). Her analogy said it was 55mph and 70mph. They are definitely not stuck in rush hour traffic going those speeds.

The analogy still doesn't work because even if the cars have to deal with each other to some degree they are separate entities and they do not have the same destination so they have no obligation to work together to get to said destination besides the obvious of just following the laws of the road. Thing is the irl laws of the road cannot be compared to FFXIV because I know for sure you aren't going to get thrown into Mordion Gaol (FFXIV's jail) for simply DPSing too hard on healer.

I mean it is sort of like they share the road, but not the destination and that means if I am running side by side with someone in Eorzea's open world and they decide to stop I am under no obligation to stop with them because I have no connection to them. I am free to just pass them and keep going to my destination. The only laws in FFXIV in that situation is that I do not harass or try to MPK said person for no reason.

With DF you cannot just run pass your team and go it alone. You'll just die without them in most cases since DF content requires the group to work as a single unified force to overcome it.

I mean saying that you should break the law to be efficient with your car....that is not the same thing as healer DPS being efficient.

I can only speak personally in that I find going "WTF" to my monitor is all the stress relief I need when I run into the Terror Pug that these threads seem to perpetuate as some common occurrence.
Finishing a couple minutes slower won't break my day
It's not that I defend '0 derps healers', only that I don't understand why they get -so much hate- compared to the, basically same, performance of the Derps and Turnks.

I understand where you are coming from as I basically do the same thing. I just vent to my boyfriend about the DF and he usually makes jokes and ends up making me laugh and it helps avoid frustration for sure and finishing slower isn't the entire issue so eh.

The other roles get just as much hate I assure you. Tanks for sure. The problem with DPS is that you can get banned for parsing and well...without parsing it is a lot harder to prove a DPS is slacking badly. I mean you can try to tell them everything they are doing wrong, but without proof they could just be like "oh I am doing it right, you aren't seeing properly" because analyzing someone's rotation is difficult without outside help. Especially when you have to focus on doing your job as well.

In general I think most people are scared to say anything to DPS jobs for fear of that parsing problem. It just isn't worth getting banned over. I have no clue if SE would ban over simply stating numbers and not technically harassing someone, but I wouldn't want to test that theory.

A tank losing hate is easy to see, and a tank tanking tons of damage and no cooldowns is very easy to see for the healer. A healer standing idle or simply overheal spamming is easy to see as well. DPS rotations....not so easy unless you knew the game very well.

[Kabooa]

I mean saying that you should break the law to be efficient with your car....that is not the same thing as a healer DPS being efficient.

I mean, they're not perfect analogies in any regard, mainly because we shouldn't be using analogies for something we can objectively measure. We don't really need a layman's comparison because we should all understand the basic functions of the game.

I feel like I repeat myself quite a bit when I say: Everyone should strive to do better. The DPS, the Tank, the Healer, and the Duty Finder is the best place to practice it because so little is actually required.

I just add on to that with: It's also the duty finder, and it takes so little and the odds of running into this person again makes THIS ENTIRE THREAD not worth the effort that goes into it.

If I didn't find it so entertaining to join into this mudpile I'd be long gone ;_;