Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Taika]

Everyone else giving 100% is plain not true.

Alright, the healer giving only 17% while everyone else giving 72-77% then. :P

Ehhhh

That's hardly fair. Xelphatol does like no damage. At all :P

And that's the whole topic of the discussion: healers who refuse to DPS even when there's almost no incoming damage at all...

[Kabooa]

Alright, the healer giving only 17% while everyone else giving 72-77% then. :P

Ehhhh

That's hardly fair. Xelphatol does like no damage. At all :P

[Moogly]

See, in just three answers, you pretty much have proof of what I'm saying :

First, you : you clearly ditch the YoshiP argument... Sorry, but whatever you will say, even if you're better than YoshiP at playing the game, YoshiP is the one creating it and balancing the data in it.... In fact, I still can't believe so many people are saying that YoshiP's vision of the game isn't relevant when in fact it is. I mean, he's the one manipulating the numbers inside you know...
And also, I noticed that when I talk about that aspect of the game, what I call the "personal" or "social" aspect, people say it's far fetched.... Remember we're playing a MMO, and though this might not be that significant to you, social interactions between players in this game are taken very seriously into account, and will influe on the game's mechanics and gameplay.
You consider the healer forum only to talk technical ? Well, I consider it to be about any subject relevant to the healer class, which also includes this.
Unlike a solo game, playing a multiplayer game isn't the same thing. That's why that constant call on pure healer to do some DPS can be percieved in the end as a selfish request.
And sorry, if despite all my explanations you can't figure what I'm trying to point out, it's either that I can't express myself well enough in english (not my mother tongue) or you have tunnel vision...

Lastelli : makes a clear difference between good and bad healers.... also throw a little lie for his cause : healer skills are no way only 1/3 of healer's spell kit :s In fact, it's more like half... duh, it's a healer's spell kit ! But better belittle those anti-DPS by saying they only use 1/3.... And the 50% active of the time... not even considering many beginners who haven't yet mastered the mp recup skills are idling for mp regen.... or because they tried something earlier in another dungeon, failed and are now scared.

Jolly : the "need to go back to the hall of novice", "is crippled", "is lazy/stubborn", or any other little caustic comments. Belittling people won't help... especially when a lot of people making these kind of comments are probably worse players than me.... And you don't do that sort of comments if you're not thinking yourself better than your contradictor.

So 2 problems with most pro-DPS healer :
- The automatic assuption that they are better players. Technically speaking they may be - but on the co-op aspect of the game, they may also be the worst players out there... But anyway, you can feel it in the way pro-DPS are talking to anti-DPS... which is the second problem :
- The quasi constant belittling of those not following their idea - and you would only do that if you think you are already in the "good players" group.

I know lot of you just don't care and won't even make a comment if they meet a pure healer in dungeon, but sorry for you guys : as you know, it's only the most annoying and rude minority that stick out and label a whole group of person.
As I said, this problem has no resolution since it stems from the clash of two POV : community vs game dev team.
And there's this one thing I said a few posts ago : you can't force rules on other people, if you aren't the one making the rules. Community can't say a pure healer is a bad/inefficient/(pick whatever negative adjective you want) healer if the game dev didn't make healer DPS mandatory. I honestly have a hard time understanding how people can't get this simple fact.

[Taika]

Moogly, what you're doing here, is putting words into people's mouths and using strawman arguments. You're not really reading other people's arguments but arguing against something that you say some random "most people like this" are saying.

First, you : you clearly ditch the YoshiP argument... Sorry, but whatever you will say, even if you're better than YoshiP at playing the game, YoshiP is the one creating it and balancing the data in it.... In fact, I still can't believe so many people are saying that YoshiP's vision of the game isn't relevant when in fact it is. I mean, he's the one manipulating the numbers inside you know...

I'm saying how the game actually works and is actually played is different from how it's talked about, and the latter is not relevant to the former. I also said you should consider Yoshi P and his team are the ones who have enforced healer DPS playstyle with their design. They have all the power to change it if they wish to do so, but instead they've been increasing its significance throughout the years - an even encouraged it in Novice Hall.

And also, I noticed that when I talk about that aspect of the game, what I call the "personal" or "social" aspect, people say it's far fetched.... Remember we're playing a MMO, and though this might not be that significant to you, social interactions between players in this game are taken very seriously into account, and will influe on the game's mechanics and gameplay.

I said the logic behind your interpretation is far-fetched, I did not say personal or social aspects of the game are insignificant. Also, your premise was that people don't care if players are inexperienced and feel insecure because of that, but I already showed you several posts proving the opposite.

You consider the healer forum only to talk technical ? Well, I consider it to be about any subject relevant to the healer class, which also includes this.

I did not say or mean to say it's only for this. I agree with you.

Unlike a solo game, playing a multiplayer game isn't the same thing. That's why that constant call on pure healer to do some DPS can be percieved in the end as a selfish request.

Is it also selfish to ask a tank to use cooldowns, or do DPS? If there's a PLD who is inexperienced and only wants to use Flash and nothing else? Is it selfish to ask for a BRD or MCH to give some TP or MP to the party, even though they are inexperienced and want to focus on keeping up their DPS rotation? Is it selfish to ask for a DPS to Goad the tank or other DPS, or ask them to Stun something? Why would healers be the only ones whose feelings matter?

[Wanzer]

Community can't say a pure healer is a bad/inefficient/(pick whatever negative adjective you want) healer if the game dev didn't make healer DPS mandatory. I honestly have a hard time understanding how people can't get this simple fact.

Many games were played differently from what the developers wanted/designed. FFXI was a good example with certain jobs (some of them were meant to be DPS and became tanks or dps in the end.), and it's even something pretty common in most of the videogames.
Being the director/producer doesn't always mean you know exactly how things are going to turn between players' hands. That's why the Yoshida said argument can't really work.

And they can say as much as they want that the pure healer is a thing it doesn't change the fact that the game itself isn't designed for it (Unfortunately?), or we wouldn't have so much downtimes as healer.

I also said you should consider Yoshi P and his team are the ones who have enforced healer DPS playstyle with their design. They have all the power to change it if they wish to do so, but instead they've been increasing its significance throughout the years - an even encouraged it in Novice Hall.

^This! With Heavensward it was pretty obvious with the new skills that we got as scholar and white mage.

[spagthetapdancer]

Not gonna lie, I will hold off on or be less prone to focusing on DPSing if

1) I think the group will not dodge mechanics
2) I think I'm going to need that mana later(if it's a long-term AOE spamming situation, going OOM is a possibility) and the tank is set to take continuous damage for a considerable period of time(30+ seconds of near non-stop damage from adds)
3) Unavoidable damage is incoming
4) my class is not that good at personal DPS(Astrologian)

Because I'm not going to weigh that 5k Malefic III against your life favorable. It isn't worth much. Besides, randoms are kind of idiots.

Also, if Word of God literally says "Fights are NOT balanced with healer damage in mind", then fights are not balanced with healers in mind. your side of the community arbitrarily set our bar higher than the devs did. not us, and frankly, you can eat the sweatiest part of my taint for setting my standards for me.

[Hookla]

I consider it icing on the cake if the healer can put out any dps while keeping me alive. They're a healer first. I think people need to chill out with their expectations, it's a damn game.

[Tridus]

First, you : you clearly ditch the YoshiP argument... Sorry, but whatever you will say, even if you're better than YoshiP at playing the game, YoshiP is the one creating it and balancing the data in it.... In fact, I still can't believe so many people are saying that YoshiP's vision of the game isn't relevant when in fact it is. I mean, he's the one manipulating the numbers inside you know...

Speaking as a professional software developer... vision isn't relevant. Outcome is. There's a famous saying in Computer Science: "The computer does what I tell it to, not what I want."

YoshiP may want to make a game where healers don't DPS in dungeons. In Stormblood, he didn't do that. In fact, he did the opposite by making it *EASIER* for healers to DPS in dungeons, and then giving us fights like O2N where tank damage is covered by Regen alone and all incoming group damage is telegraphed far in advance.

Anybody who knows the fight can know with absolute certainty that there is no incoming damage to heal for the next 10 seconds. At that point, there's no chance of being caught off guard by damage, no risk someone dying because you're midcast on Stone, and no particular risk of you even being in the wrong place since you don't have to move until the telegraph comes up.

What justification is there for being idle at that point? "I don't feel like doing DPS" is not a valid reason, any more than it would be if a tank said it. The game gives you a window where you have no healing to do with absolute certainty, and gives you useful damage skills that don't require you to cripple your healing to use. That's as clear as a game design can possibly be.

If YoshiP really wanted healers to not DPS in dungeons, he'd have kept Cleric stance in and made it like AST Sects: Once it's on, you can't turn it off. Problem solved. That he did the opposite and made DPS easier speaks pretty loudly.

I mean, I've been levelling Paladin. I can hold aggro on everything in Doma Castle (my job) with just Flash and my defensive cooldowns, doing 0 DPS. By this logic, I can flash 6 times, hit Rampart, and then stand around doing nothing for the rest of the pull. I've done my job as a tank, right?

Oddly, we don't see hardly any tanks doing that, and we don't see the community defend them when they do. Ditto with DPSers who don't feel like using AoE abilities on big pulls. Nobody goes "oh, well Jolt is good enough to clear the content, so there's no reason to use anything else."

I expect everyone in the group to make a good faith effort to help the group. That means not standing around 75% of the fight doing absolutely nothing when they could be doing something helpful. I hold everyone to that standard, and don't see why experienced healers should get special snowflake treatment.

not even considering many beginners who haven't yet mastered the mp recup skills are idling for mp regen.... or because they tried something earlier in another dungeon, failed and are now scared.

Pretty much everyone gives newbies a pass. I see them all the time in levelling roulette as a tank and Red Mage (the other thing I've been working on), and have never seen anyone raise a fuss about it. I see people even get away with it in Deltascape Normal without anybody saying anything. DF groups just don't care that much if they get the clear.

Higher tier groups do, because harder content demands people push harder. But if you're on Ex/Savage, you're not doing newbie friendly content anymore.

I know lot of you just don't care and won't even make a comment if they meet a pure healer in dungeon, but sorry for you guys : as you know, it's only the most annoying and rude minority that stick out and label a whole group of person.

That logic also explains how the newbies who don't know how to weave in DPS and/or don't have the confidence to do it get lumped in with people who could and simply don't feel like it, then come here and write pages about what the developer vision is based on a single old quote, when they don't have any insider information about that vision and when the actual product promotes the opposite of that supposed vision.

As I said, this problem has no resolution since it stems from the clash of two POV : community vs game dev team.

Community vs community, more accurately. You don't speak for the dev team. More importantly, SE lets you kick people for not DPSing as healers from a group as a "difference in playstyle." If it's not something they want, why do they condone that?

And there's this one thing I said a few posts ago : you can't force rules on other people, if you aren't the one making the rules. Community can't say a pure healer is a bad/inefficient/(pick whatever negative adjective you want) healer if the game dev didn't make healer DPS mandatory. I honestly have a hard time understanding how people can't get this simple fact.

Actually, the community can. Community standards are created by the community, not the developers. That's why they're called community standards. Red Mages don't have to use Verraise/Vercure, but the community thinks much more highly of the ones that do when it's needed than it does of the ones who complain about how it's the healers job and would impact their DPS numbers.

[Moogly]

Moogly, what you're doing here, is putting words into people's mouths and using strawman arguments. You're not really reading other people's arguments but arguing against something that you say some random "most people like this" are saying.

strawman arguments.... again ditching out any possibility of debate even though :

I'm saying how the game actually works and is actually played is different from how it's talked about, and the latter is not relevant to the former. I also said you should consider Yoshi P and his team are the ones who have enforced healer DPS playstyle with their design. They have all the power to change it if they wish to do so, but instead they've been increasing its significance throughout the years - an even encouraged it in Novice Hall.

There are a bunch of SB interviews in which YoshiP clearly states that he and his team do not like healer focusing too much on DPS. They did remove the stance dance to make it easier for those who wanted, but clearly double pointed out that it was not mandatory.

I said the logic behind your interpretation is far-fetched, I did not say personal or social aspects of the game are insignificant. Also, your premise was that people don't care if players are inexperienced and feel insecure because of that, but I already showed you several posts proving the opposite.

I'll try with an analogy : won't be sure if it'll fit in, but that will give you the general idea.
Cars can easily go faster than 55mph. If you want to be efficient with your car, you better drive it at 70mph, since it can go that fast. State patrol could arrest you if you went above 55mph, but who cares, they're never watching, and actually won't even say a thing if they do happen to catch you speeding. Hell, even state patrol is driving way above 70mph... So it's a common thing for everybody to be driving at 70mph on that 55mph road. Then, you encounter someone who is driving at 55 mph... because there was that one sign that was saying so : would that be considered as bad driving ?
If you happen to stop that driver and start arguing with him, it will be the same thing as in this thread.

Is it also selfish to ask a tank to use cooldowns, or do DPS? If there's a PLD who is inexperienced and only wants to use Flash and nothing else? Is it selfish to ask for a BRD or MCH to give some TP or MP to the party, even though they are inexperienced and want to focus on keeping up their DPS rotation? Is it selfish to ask for a DPS to Goad the tank or other DPS, or ask them to Stun something? Why would healers be the only ones whose feelings matter?

You didn't understand what I consider selfish.

Asking a player politely to try doing some DPS is OK. I am for any constructive behaviour in this game.

But the way some people here are belittling others, or automatically making the assumption that pure healer are bad healers will only fuel the hate. And in the end, you get that feeling that those rude people only ask lots from others for their own benefit. I mean I don't know how to explain it better, even those kind of situations are pretty common IRL, doesn't only happen in games... In my country, we call those people sharks : ready to destroy or pressure anybody just so they get their promotion or extra-bonus...
This is the selfishness I am talking about.
Now why would some pro DPS try so hard to make pure healer do some DPS to the point of belittling them ?
I cannot find any other reason than this one...

edit for Tridus
As a former web-dev, I also know that you cannot listen to your customer every dreams and wishes as your project might very well fall to the ground.
Specs were defined : stick to it. It is even sometimes your job to impose your decision on what can be done and what must be done, no matter what the customer may say.
And in a project of the scale of FFXIV, you cannot rely only on the top tier suggestions as they are a minority in the game (in any game actually).
Look who won in wow... was it the hardcore raiders ?

Also, SB was definitely tuned for zero healer DPS : YoshiP's interview by Mr Happy.
So I am in no way imagining things or speaking in their stand : they actually did say it and even wanted to make sure that people knew it was their point.
The 2nd community would then be the pure healer group standing behind YoshiP and his team.

Finally, I am only talking about DF - though even for savage fights, healer DPS isn't mandatory. I can't find the interview again, but YoshiP explained that to determine the health pool of savage bosses, they would take the mean performance of all tank and dps in the superior tier and lower that by 10-15%. I actually think this was part of his explanation of why healer DPS really wasn't mandatory as it wasn't even taken into account in the tuning of the fight. This also explain why top tier group manage to push bosses and skip phases...
FFXIV, unlike Wow, do not push the players too far. They want to give players some challenging content, but also want people to be able to enjoy all the content while not necessarily being a hardcore raider.
But then most savage fights are formed through PF - in which clear rules are stated by players - and valid in this case. So in this case there is no complaining possible from anti-DPS.

[spagthetapdancer]

I consider it icing on the cake if the healer can put out any dps while keeping me alive. They're a healer first. I think people need to chill out with their expectations, it's a damn game.

do a good enough job of not interfering with my task of ensuring party security and stability that I can trust you and you won't even have to ask me to put icing on your cake ^_^
on the other hand, act like a pushy douche and you'll get nothing nice from me no matter how good a player you are.